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Author Topic: Gulf of Maine Changing Color BDN  (Read 5967 times)

CLAMFARMER

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Gulf of Maine Changing Color BDN
« on: Apr 29, 2016, 06:12 AM »
Interesting correlation: I’ve been at a few meetings lately where most shellfish peole have observed very slow growth of recent years clam and mussel sets. I sell clams at Maine Shellfish. They keep a tight reign on shucked clam yields. The guy in charge of this tells me the meat yield per shell stock pound is substantially lower than ever in their records for this time of year. Clams SHOULD be bulking up heavily in preparation for a late May spawn. They are way behind. This would seem to indicate a lack of feed and corroborate this article:

http://bangordailynews.com/2016/04/28/environment/the-gulf-of-maine-is-changing-color-what-does-that-mean/

"The reason is an increase over the past 80 years in rainfall and the resulting dissolved organic carbon — a dark “tea” steeped from dead leaves and soil, lab officials said — that flows into the gulf, which is interfering with the ability of microscopic marine plants known as phytoplankton to grow.

Researchers at Bigelow Lab, led by Dr. William Balch, conduct transects of the Gulf of Maine each year, taking samples and logging data as they traverse the width of the gulf between Maine and Nova Scotia. They have been recording the color of the gulf and as part of a recent study compared their measurements with those collected by the lab’s namesake, Henry Bryant Bigelow, in 1912.

“The conclusion is that the gulf has yellowed over the last century, particularly in coastal Maine waters,” the lab indicated in a recent news release.

As plants, phytoplankton contain chlorophyll and grow via sun-fueled photosynthesis. The color change in the gulf is reducing the amount of sunlight that penetrates the water’s surface, however, hampering the growth rates of phytoplankton.”
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PK186

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Re: Gulf of Maine Changing Color BDN
« Reply #1 on: Apr 29, 2016, 07:13 AM »
Good post, all fact and no sentiment.

CLAMFARMER

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Re: Gulf of Maine Changing Color BDN
« Reply #2 on: Apr 29, 2016, 07:27 AM »
Good post, all fact and no sentiment.

1+1= x

Good thing his name ain’t "Dr. James E. Hansen “, Right?   :rotflol:
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thedirtydirtyfisherman

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Re: Gulf of Maine Changing Color BDN
« Reply #3 on: Apr 29, 2016, 10:03 AM »
I believe it clamfarmer, there are years of data and evidence that softshelled clams and oysters are going to really be hurting as our climate changes and warms.  State and federal governments should really be experimenting with new propagation methods and regulations in order to enhance bed and or eliminate predators (green crabs)  to help the clams and clammers or start looking at other possible organisms that could be exploited commercially.

Wolley

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Re: Gulf of Maine Changing Color BDN
« Reply #4 on: Apr 29, 2016, 11:08 AM »
it looks like using the ocean as a toilet for the last 500 years is starting to catch up to us.
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PK186

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Re: Gulf of Maine Changing Color BDN
« Reply #5 on: Apr 29, 2016, 04:26 PM »
1+1= x

Good thing his name ain’t "Dr. James E. Hansen “, Right?   :rotflol:

I have no idea what you are on, I mean trying to say.

CLAMFARMER

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Re: Gulf of Maine Changing Color BDN
« Reply #6 on: Apr 29, 2016, 05:59 PM »
I believe it clamfarmer, there are years of data and evidence that softshelled clams and oysters are going to really be hurting as our climate changes and warms.  State and federal governments should really be experimenting with new propagation methods and regulations in order to enhance bed and or eliminate predators (green crabs)  to help the clams and clammers or start looking at other possible organisms that could be exploited commercially.

Actually,  there is a bunch of stuff going on like you mention. Lots of stock enhancement experimentation is happening. The issue is so large, a couple thousand miles of coast line and 10s of thousands of acres, it is not really something that can be addressed except on a localized level, i.e. individual or community aquaculture. There ARE a lot of flats now where clam sets dissolve before they can grow enough shell to survive. Green crabs “graze” on the ones they can get to. The ones on the higher and more hard flats have a chance. Netting plots of clams helps. Trapping crabs helps.

If the clams don’t have an ample food source, they just won’t grow. We’re seeing it in our area. On top of everything else, not a good seen.
\"It has always been my private conviction that any man who pits his intelligence against a fish and loses has it coming.”<br />

CLAMFARMER

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Re: Gulf of Maine Changing Color BDN
« Reply #7 on: Apr 29, 2016, 05:59 PM »
it looks like using the ocean as a toilet for the last 500 years is starting to catch up to us.

It’s mostly the last 100.
\"It has always been my private conviction that any man who pits his intelligence against a fish and loses has it coming.”<br />

CLAMFARMER

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Re: Gulf of Maine Changing Color BDN
« Reply #8 on: Apr 29, 2016, 06:00 PM »
 :rotflol:
I have no idea what you are on, I mean trying to say.
\"It has always been my private conviction that any man who pits his intelligence against a fish and loses has it coming.”<br />

TunkTroller

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Re: Gulf of Maine Changing Color BDN
« Reply #9 on: Apr 30, 2016, 01:55 AM »
Clams don't bulk up in prep for the spawn no more than a man does before spreading seed. They are stationary shellfish not migratory spawners about to travel thousands of miles. They increase meat volume in the spring  because feed is more abundant in the spring and summer.  Volume also varies highly by location, current, soil medium, etc. I operated a shucking shop for a long time and you could tell where a Clam came from just by yield. Wards cove always produced 5 quarts to the 50. Walk literally 100 feet across the road to the picnic area and it dropped to 4 quarts on 50.

Maine Shells yield is down for 2 common sense reasons.

1.) This spring has been a slow start even with the mild winter.   Wind, storms, Temps have them blowing out a month later than last year. Last year March 16th I started breaking 200 pounds. This year it was April 12th. When they aren't showing diggers go to hard pack,  rocks, sand. More people dig with a hoe than pull. Clams in these areas always have lower yields than their soft mud brothers. Even I hoe dug up until April. The story was the same the length of the coast. Leading to a small  yield run on the market

2.) Maine Shell has always been the low ball market. Along with A.C. inc and Maritime they try to drive down the market price in order to stick up on cheap frozen gallons. Come summer they thaw them. Mix them half and half with fresh shucked and sell them at astronomical profits. In recent years however the market has seen an influx of new markets and buyers that dwarfs Maine Shells harvester price year round. Particularly in the clam belt where the majority of Maines clams come from. Right now for example RDR is $2.25 for a clean run with no breakage. Today I had 223 pounds of beautiful 4 inch average clams. Why would I sell to Maine Shell for $1.50 and make $330 and change when I can sell to RDR and make $500? At the moment on a 60 bushel a week average id be loosing a forutne as would anyone else.Why would anyone with a good run sell to them?

The only people left selling to Maine Shell are d**n few holdouts like you or people selling complete garbage (broken ones,small ones and half washed) that they can't sell anywhere else. Maine Shell is the garbage buyer because they pay the garbage price. Until they manage to compete with the new markets they can expect the yield count out of the trash runs to stay low. I can't imagine why you are still dealing with them?

If the tea stained water theory were true wouldn't clams just feed more often to make up for less feed in the water? Clams blow out when they are filtering or spawning. If we are to belive this then clams should be blown out all the time trying to feed. Which is by no means the case. It would also be news to anyone east of Steuben that there's a yield problem with clams. Last year the buyers everywhere here were flooded with large meaty runs. So big and so many they had trouble marketing them during steamer season. You'll find now that they are blowing out again and that your area has its fair share. Get out of the same old holes and land on soft mud, channel banks or mussel beds. They are still there. The bio lady for our area came around last fall sampling with her little coffee can device and told us cow island bar was very barren of clams and we should consider measures to improve it. We all sat there in silent astonishment because we all knew the one thing she apparently didn't: clams are so thick there that an ant on tooth pick stilts couldnt cross the mud without stepping on a hole when they blow out. They just happened to be buttoned up at the time and when they drop I can't turn them with a 24 inch sand worm hoe. How is a 6 inch deep coffee can going to pick them up? They don't know anymore about clam ecosystems than my bluetick does. If you wanted to know about cooing would you talk to a chef or someone who spent a lot of time reading cook books?

How can they take samples from 1912 and compare them to samples from a recent study and make a conclusion one way or the other?  There's 100 years in between where samples weren't taken.  It's Ludacris to make this assessment. Just taking the samples in slightly different areas from the 1912 samples could provide a different color.sample. look where the guagus enters milbridge bay. It creates a distinct ocean green/dark brown line for miles down the bay. A 1 foot difference in sample location there could yield you 2 completely different results. The ocean is constantly moving, mixing, rough, windy. The Gulfstream and current always moving and mixing. Look at the rainfall tables over the last 100 years. Which are much more specific and better documented than the water samples in this study. Then consider the minute increase in rainfall. Then consider the vastness,  depth and volume of the earths oceans. Do you honestly find it conceivable that the small increase in rain water through leafs made enough difference to seriously alter the color of the ocean to the point it effects plankton growth? Making this assessment on samples taken 100 years apart?this is the definition of ridiculousness. There's so many variables at play here that it would take decades of continuously collected data to make a serious assessment.

Assuming it rained more it's safe to assume it was overcast more. Who's to say the lack of feed isn't a result of reduced sun light for which clam feed relies on??  If I had to hazard an "educated hypothesis" (like the foundation of most these studies) I would say this outfit is producing findings in an effort to show proof of theory to try and obtain a government grant or funding of some sort so they have abother million in tax revenue to blow. 10 years from now another group will spend millions in a study only to tell us the ocean is clearing.

CLAMFARMER

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Re: Gulf of Maine Changing Color BDN
« Reply #10 on: Apr 30, 2016, 04:17 AM »
Clams don't bulk up in prep for the spawn no more than a man does before spreading seed. They are stationary shellfish not migratory spawners about to travel thousands of miles. They increase meat volume in the spring  because feed is more abundant in the spring and summer.  Volume also varies highly by location, current, soil medium, etc. I operated a shucking shop for a long time and you could tell where a Clam came from just by yield. Wards cove always produced 5 quarts to the 50. Walk literally 100 feet across the road to the picnic area and it dropped to 4 quarts on 50.

Assuming it rained more it's safe to assume it was overcast more. Who's to say the lack of feed isn't a result of reduced sun light for which clam feed relies on??  If I had to hazard an "educated hypothesis" (like the foundation of most these studies) I would say this outfit is producing findings in an effort to show proof of theory to try and obtain a government grant or funding of some sort so they have abother million in tax revenue to blow. 10 years from now another group will spend millions in a study only to tell us the ocean is clearing.

Marine scientists are just like clam diggers, except,well, they keep written records over long periods of time and don’t generally publicize  anything until results are consistently replicated. So, this means that an "educated hypothesis” needs to be tested with data and repeatable results. A hypothesis, no matter how educated, is only a hopeful guess.

Clams, and shellfish in general are basically dormant all winter. The use reserves the gained during the previous summer and fall to survive over the winter. Soft shell clams spawn in our area beginning roughly mid May. At the time of spawn, their body mass is at it’s highest. Their body mass is lowest immediately after spawning. So, after a clam spawns it is at it’s least body mass. It then feeds most of the summer and gains a good portion of it’s mass back and then uses a good part of that to make it through the winter. As spring arrives and water temps rise, palnton blooms. This is coincidental (and the clams evolved in this milieu) with the clams need to spawn beginning mid may well into June depending on water temp. Between the time clams come out of effective winter dormancy and spawn the gain substantial body mass, they bulk up so to speak. The body mass, at it’s peak is largely [the belly]. It is spawning material, i.e. sperm and eggs. This is also the time the clams are at their sweetest, because they are loaded with glycogen in their sperm and eggs.

TT mentions the clams should be feeding more if there is less feed in the water. They really can’t feed anymore than constantly. Once they begin to feed, they are siphoning, pumping water  continually to glean every bit of nutrient then can. If the soup is thin, it takes longer for the clams to development body mass and grow in general. If they are into a thick stew they develop accordingly, bulking up.

In our area, Frenchman Bay and surrounding, we are seeing very slow growth and notable low body mass in our shell stock, even in areas that normally produce our best stuff and fastest growers. I have seen some exceptions, notably in the narrows of the Taunton River and in the extreme low area of Raccoon Cove. The Taunton River has been sampled and consistently shows some of the highest plankton levels in the area. Clams in Raccoon Cove (and other places that are below mean low tide) get to feed for longer periods of time do to the fact the tide doesn’t uncover them much. In both of these instances, here at least, the meat count is down. Yes, it could be due this year’s conditions and likely is.

What the article discusses is a trend over time, over years. It is not a conclusion, but and tested and recorded observation.

Yes, more cloudy weather contributes. Rain contributes to increased run off. Fresh water contributes to less feeding time in areas adjacent to freshwater inlets. Predictions have held true, thus far, regarding increased rainfall in the Eastern US. If this is a continuing trend, the article’s indications are likely approaching the true conditions in the gulf.



\"It has always been my private conviction that any man who pits his intelligence against a fish and loses has it coming.”<br />

TunkTroller

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Re: Gulf of Maine Changing Color BDN
« Reply #11 on: Apr 30, 2016, 06:11 AM »
Marie scientist are not just like diggers. For one they are not spending the duration of every tide on the flay day in and day out. They are there sporadically. They also do not depend upon the success of stock growth for their means of survival like a digger. Instead they depend on government funding. As such they will bend their narrative in order to keep getting paid. As far as records go taxation by default warrants I document landings for every tide. With the exception of October and November I dig doubles in perpetuity. What better record set could exist than that? Seems to me anyone very interested in drawing serious conclusions about flat health would be trying to obtain that info but nobody.is asking.

You are seeing what you perceive as slower growing clams bevause you are only seeing the smaller run. July-March the run size everywhere is predominantly a 2 1/2" and under run located in the high flat and up into the shoreline areas where growth isn't as good. April-July the larger run blows out painting a entirely different story. Walk around the Jordan river in the right spots today and you will find the meatiest and fastest growing clams in the state. For years Milbridge and other towns complained about how good the claiming was in Harrington and how lucky we were. Now Milbridge has some guys digging that know how to move around with tide calander, dig the outlet limits of large flats, don't spend all their time in spots that are 2 feet from the truck or so hard you can walk around in knee highs. Now they realize its just as good there as anywhere else. It's just a matter of someone who knows what their doing landing on them. That's why two people in the same town can have completely different success rates.

Clams being at their smallest body mass after spawning isn't a revelation. Of course they are they just blew a pile of spat out of themselves. That spawning has nothing to do with their feeding habits up until that point as you suggested.

You also suggest clams are feeding constantly in response to my statement that clams would be feeding more if they aren't finding enough feed. Clams dont even come close to feeding continually. If they did every time you walked onto a mud flat EVERY clam on that flat would be blown out and you'd be blown away by just how much volume is there. You'd also be seeing the larger run you think your area is lacking. You aren't seeing them though because they feed infrequently compared to a smaller guy and when they aren't feeding you have no way of knowing they are there to survey. They go so deep you cant turn them over. As I mentioned before a sand worm hoe won't even touch them. Nows the time to survey them if your town wants to do it. You have a short window when they are exposing themselves and then you can kiss them goodbye for a year. I'd suggest mirroring the system we use here. We even go get good weight in the dead of winter when they are supposedly dormant and we have about 5 times as many diggers in a smaller area. So obviously the 6 months in one half and 6 months in the other system is still.working 40 years later. I'd be happy to help in any way and get you a copy of our ordinance.

You failed to address Maine Shells yield data versus my point. I'm wondering how you'll refute my obvious logic on that one and again why give them away to them for the *expletive* price they are paying. You're just as close to Trenton Bridge and RDR as you are Maine Shell and I know you dig a nice run. Granted it sucks waiting in line but its like adding half a tide to a check. They only way to drive them up with the competition is taking away what few they are still getting. Two of their shops down here just got in a mess last week. Some of the stuff in the cooler was OVER 50% small.  The best they found was 12%. They are trucking loads of garbage out of here to keep going along with the gallons they get from Sandy Cove Shellfish. They are just cutting everyone's throat including their own by buying that stuff before it's had a chance to grow.

joefishmore

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Re: Gulf of Maine Changing Color BDN
« Reply #12 on: Apr 30, 2016, 09:16 AM »
it looks like using the ocean as a toilet for the last 500 years is starting to catch up to us.

It said color was from leaves and other forms of carbon.
There was more fish and clams when the sewers went right into the ocean

taxid

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Re: Gulf of Maine Changing Color BDN
« Reply #13 on: Apr 30, 2016, 12:53 PM »
It said color was from leaves and other forms of carbon.
There was more fish and clams when the sewers went right into the ocean

Very true. As gross as it is, sewers actually can enrich water and enhance the fertility and phytoplankton production, which passes on to zooplankton and up the food chain.

I do wonder if this is indeed due to leaves for the most part, it's possible things may be reverting back to normal? I say this because at one time New England was almost denuded by the settlers and later overzealous tree harvesting, and from what I'm seeing the forests are coming back -- hence Moose and bears of unprecedented numbers in a state like Massachusetts. See northern Worcestor Count has somewhere near 1000 where most of the moose are in the state. And the bear numbers for the state are 4000 to 5000.

I've seen pictures about 100 years ago of Massachusetts landscapes and was flabbergasted by the amount of wide open land that does not exist now.

Of course Mass is not Maine but I used it to make my point.
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CLAMFARMER

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Re: Gulf of Maine Changing Color BDN
« Reply #14 on: Apr 30, 2016, 04:00 PM »
Lots to address here and we seem to be talking somewhat at cross purposes. apples and sea cucumbers..... I did not fail to address Maine Shell.  Clams here are either stunting or growing more slowly due to low feed  or  competition w/mussels (I doubt) in some isolated areas. WE do have fast an slow grower in evidence . We do NOT have the year classes form 3- 4 years ago. We DO have the year classes form 1-2 years ago that are now in their third year.  WE simply do not have the middle classes at this time. I will have to give you a better run down tomorrow. Unfortunately I have taken a “real” job this year (which I just got home from and have other matters to attend)  as I have ZERO confidence in sustainable harvest in our areas, especially in that the resource will NOT avail winter security though, with the price expected this summer and early fall will be good. I’ll get back with ya later and look ago your PM in the tomorrow AM.

OH YEAH! I’m gonna get my CDL with Hazemat, but MAYBE I’ll just COLLECT this coming ice fishing season as I would get the MAXIMUM. THAT would give me plenty of fishing time!  ;D :thumbup_smilie:

 
Marie scientist are not just like diggers. For one they are not spending the duration of every tide on the flay day in and day out. They are there sporadically. They also do not depend upon the success of stock growth for their means of survival like a digger. Instead they depend on government funding. As such they will bend their narrative in order to keep getting paid. As far as records go taxation by default warrants I document landings for every tide. With the exception of October and November I dig doubles in perpetuity. What better record set could exist than that? Seems to me anyone very interested in drawing serious conclusions about flat health would be trying to obtain that info but nobody.is asking.

You are seeing what you perceive as slower growing clams bevause you are only seeing the smaller run. July-March the run size everywhere is predominantly a 2 1/2" and under run located in the high flat and up into the shoreline areas where growth isn't as good. April-July the larger run blows out painting a entirely different story. Walk around the Jordan river in the right spots today and you will find the meatiest and fastest growing clams in the state. For years Milbridge and other towns complained about how good the claiming was in Harrington and how lucky we were. Now Milbridge has some guys digging that know how to move around with tide calander, dig the outlet limits of large flats, don't spend all their time in spots that are 2 feet from the truck or so hard you can walk around in knee highs. Now they realize its just as good there as anywhere else. It's just a matter of someone who knows what their doing landing on them. That's why two people in the same town can have completely different success rates.

Clams being at their smallest body mass after spawning isn't a revelation. Of course they are they just blew a pile of spat out of themselves. That spawning has nothing to do with their feeding habits up until that point as you suggested.

You also suggest clams are feeding constantly in response to my statement that clams would be feeding more if they aren't finding enough feed. Clams dont even come close to feeding continually. If they did every time you walked onto a mud flat EVERY clam on that flat would be blown out and you'd be blown away by just how much volume is there. You'd also be seeing the larger run you think your area is lacking. You aren't seeing them though because they feed infrequently compared to a smaller guy and when they aren't feeding you have no way of knowing they are there to survey. They go so deep you cant turn them over. As I mentioned before a sand worm hoe won't even touch them. Nows the time to survey them if your town wants to do it. You have a short window when they are exposing themselves and then you can kiss them goodbye for a year. I'd suggest mirroring the system we use here. We even go get good weight in the dead of winter when they are supposedly dormant and we have about 5 times as many diggers in a smaller area. So obviously the 6 months in one half and 6 months in the other system is still.working 40 years later. I'd be happy to help in any way and get you a copy of our ordinance.

You failed to address Maine Shells yield data versus my point. I'm wondering how you'll refute my obvious logic on that one and again why give them away to them for the *expletive* price they are paying. You're just as close to Trenton Bridge and RDR as you are Maine Shell and I know you dig a nice run. Granted it sucks waiting in line but its like adding half a tide to a check. They only way to drive them up with the competition is taking away what few they are still getting. Two of their shops down here just got in a mess last week. Some of the stuff in the cooler was OVER 50% small.  The best they found was 12%. They are trucking loads of garbage out of here to keep going along with the gallons they get from Sandy Cove Shellfish. They are just cutting everyone's throat including their own by buying that stuff before it's had a chance to grow.
\"It has always been my private conviction that any man who pits his intelligence against a fish and loses has it coming.”<br />

 



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