Democrats A Threat To Sportsmen?

[Fat Boy]

Whatever happened to us all being united in the war on terror?  I just don't get it.  Seems like we're not united at all...  Is that the message that everyone else gets too?  I'm just askin'...

could we ask ourselves a few questions please
when did all this middle east terrorist stuff start...not with GW or Clinton,it started with George's daddy the connections are made clear in movie and book there facts.

For everyone's info, here's the answer to that question (it didn't start with George H.W. Bush FYI):

FYI, terrorist acts in the Middle East have been occurring since 1946.  The U.S. has been threatened from that time on for supporting Israel by various Arab terrorist organizations.  Check out this web site for all of the terrorist incidents since then.  If you read them all, you'll notice a trend that Islamic terrorists have (and this trend has nothing to do with George H.W. Bush and the first war with Iraq, although that war magnified the U.S. as a target).  In many countries and regions, like the Phillipines, Indonesia, Europe and elsewhere, you'll see attacks against innocent people simply because they aren't Islamic and practice another religion, or the people were Israelis, Jews, or citizens of the allies of the Israeli nation.  Read all of these on this site (http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/5902.htm) one by one and you'll see what I mean (especially from the 70's until present).  The list that I've included below is only a few of the incidents, there are many many more.  I've also only included those below up until 9/11/2001.

Most of the attacks were directed at Israelis and Jews until March 2, 1973 when U.S. Ambassador to Sudan Cleo A. Noel and other diplomats were assassinated at the Saudi Arabian Embassy in Khartoum by members of the Black September organization.  At the time, Richard Nixon was President of the U.S.  Since then, the following incidents took place that either had Americans as victims or were directed against U.S. interests and who was the U.S. President at the time:

Attack and Hijacking at the Rome Airport, December 17, 1973: Five terrorists pulled weapons from their luggage in the terminal lounge at the Rome airport, killing two persons. They then attacked a Pan American 707 bound for Beirut and Tehran, destroying it with incendiary grenades and killing 29 persons, including 4 senior Moroccan officials and 14 American employees of ARAMCO. They then herded 5 Italian hostages into a Lufthansa airliner and killed an Italian customs agent as he tried to escape, after which they forced the pilot to fly to Beirut. After Lebanese authorities refused to let the plane land, it landed in Athens, where the terrorists demanded the release of 2 Arab terrorists. In order to make Greek authorities comply with their demands, the terrorists killed a hostage and threw his body onto the tarmac. The plane then flew to Damascus, where it stopped for two hours to obtain fuel and food. It then flew to Kuwait, where the terrorists released their hostages in return for passage to an unknown destination. The Palestine Liberation Organization disavowed the attack, and no group claimed responsibility for it. (President:  Richard Nixon)

Ambassador to Cyprus Assassinated, August 19, 1974: U.S. Ambassador to Cyprus Rodger P. Davies and his Greek Cypriot secretary were shot and killed by snipers during a demonstration outside the U.S. Embassy in Nicosia. (I'm not sure if this was by a Middle Eastern terrorist organization or not, but I included it because of the location of the incident).  (President:  Gerald Ford)
Entebbe Hostage Crisis, June 27, 1976: Members of the Baader-Meinhof Group and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) seized an Air France airliner and its 258 passengers. They forced the plane to land in Uganda. On July 3 Israeli commandos successfully rescued the passengers.  (Noteful event, not sure if Americans were on board or not) (President:  Gerald Ford)

[Fat Boy]

Had to post in 2 places cuz it wuz too much

Ambassador to Afghanistan Assassinated, February 14, 1979: Four Afghans kidnapped U.S. Ambassador Adolph Dubs in Kabul and demanded the release of various "religious figures." Dubs was killed, along with four alleged terrorists, when Afghan police stormed the hotel room where he was being held.  (President:  Jimmy Carter)

Iran Hostage Crisis, November 4, 1979: After President Carter agreed to admit the Shah of Iran into the US, Iranian radicals seized the U.S. Embassy in Tehran and took 66 American diplomats hostage. Thirteen hostages were soon released, but the remaining 53 were held until their release on January 20, 1981.  (President:  Jimmy Carter)

Bombing of U.S. Embassy in Beirut, April 18, 1983: Sixty-three people, including the CIA’s Middle East director, were killed and 120 were injured in a 400-pound suicide truck-bomb attack on the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, Lebanon. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility. (President:  Ronald Reagan)

Bombing of Marine Barracks, Beirut, October 23, 1983: Simultaneous suicide truck-bomb attacks were made on American and French compounds in Beirut, Lebanon. A 12,000-pound bomb destroyed the U.S. compound, killing 242 Americans, while 58 French troops were killed when a 400-pound device destroyed a French base. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.  (President:  Ronald Reagan)

Naval Officer Assassinated in Greece, November 15, 1983: A U.S. Navy officer was shot by the November 17 terrorist group in Athens, Greece, while his car was stopped at a traffic light. (I included this because of the location being close to the Middle East).  (President:  Ronald Reagan)

Kidnapping of Embassy Official, March 16, 1984: The Islamic Jihad kidnapped and later murdered Political Officer William Buckley in Beirut, Lebanon. Other U.S. citizens not connected to the U.S. government were seized over a succeeding two-year period.  (President:  Ronald Reagan)

Restaurant Bombing in Spain, April 12, 1984: Eighteen U.S. servicemen were killed and 83 people were injured in a bomb attack on a restaurant near a U.S. Air Force Base in Torrejon, Spain.  (President:  Ronald Reagan)

TWA Hijacking, June 14, 1985: A Trans-World Airlines flight was hijacked en route to Rome from Athens by two Lebanese Hizballah terrorists and forced to fly to Beirut. The eight crew members and 145 passengers were held for seventeen days, during which one American hostage, a U.S. Navy sailor, was murdered. After being flown twice to Algiers, the aircraft was returned to Beirut after Israel released 435 Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners. (President:  Ronald Reagan)

Achille Lauro Hijacking, October 7, 1985: Four Palestinian Liberation Front terrorists seized the Italian cruise liner in the eastern Mediterranean Sea, taking more than 700 hostages. One U.S. passenger was murdered before the Egyptian government offered the terrorists safe haven in return for the hostages’ freedom.  (President:  Ronald Reagan)

Egyptian Airliner Hijacking, November 23, 1985: An EgyptAir airplane bound from Athens to Malta and carrying several U.S. citizens was hijacked by the Abu Nidal Group.  (President:  Ronald Reagan)

Aircraft Bombing in Greece, March 30, 1986: A Palestinian splinter group detonated a bomb as TWA Flight 840 approached Athens airport, killing four U.S. citizens.  (President:  Ronald Reagan)

Berlin Discothèque Bombing, April 5, 1986: Two U.S. soldiers were killed and 79 American servicemen were injured in a Libyan bomb attack on a nightclub in West Berlin, West Germany. In retaliation U.S. military jets bombed targets in and around Tripoli and Benghazi.  (President:  Ronald Reagan)

Bus Attack, April 24, 1987: Sixteen U.S. servicemen riding in a Greek Air Force bus near Athens were injured in an apparent bombing attack, carried out by the revolutionary organization known as November 17.  (President:  Ronald Reagan)

Servicemen’s Bar Attack, December 26, 1987: Catalan separatists bombed a Barcelona bar frequented by U.S. servicemen, resulting in the death of one U.S. citizen.  (President:  Ronald Reagan)

Kidnapping of William Higgins, February 17, 1988: U.S. Marine Corps Lieutenant Colonel W. Higgins was kidnapped and murdered by the Iranian-backed Hizballah group while serving with the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organization (UNTSO) in southern Lebanon.  (President:  Ronald Reagan)

Naples USO Attack, April 14, 1988: The Organization of Jihad Brigades exploded a car-bomb outside a USO Club in Naples, Italy, killing one U.S. sailor.  (President:  Ronald Reagan)

Attack on U.S. Diplomat in Greece, June 28, 1988: The Defense Attaché of the U.S. Embassy in Greece was killed when a car-bomb was detonated outside his home in Athens.  (President:  Ronald Reagan)

Pan Am 103 Bombing, December 21, 1988: Pan American Airlines Flight 103 was blown up over Lockerbie, Scotland, by a bomb believed to have been placed on the aircraft by Libyan terrorists in Frankfurt, West Germany. All 259 people on board were killed.  (President:  Ronald Reagan)

Attempted Iraqi Attacks on U.S. Posts, January 18-19, 1991: Iraqi agents planted bombs at the U.S. Ambassador to Indonesia’s home residence and at the USIS library in Manila.  (President:  George H.W. Bush)

World Trade Center Bombing, February 26, 1993: The World Trade Center in New York City was badly damaged when a car bomb planted by Islamic terrorists exploded in an underground garage. The bomb left 6 people dead and 1,000 injured. The men carrying out the attack were followers of Umar Abd al-Rahman, an Egyptian cleric who preached in the New York City area.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

Attempted Assassination of President Bush by Iraqi Agents, April 14, 1993: The Iraqi intelligence service attempted to assassinate former U.S. President George Bush during a visit to Kuwait. In retaliation, the U.S. launched a cruise missile attack 2 months later on the Iraqi capital Baghdad.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

Attack on U.S. Diplomats in Pakistan, March 8, 1995: Two unidentified gunmen killed two U.S. diplomats and wounded a third in Karachi, Pakistan.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

Jerusalem Bus Attack, August 21, 1995: HAMAS claimed responsibility for the detonation of a bomb that killed 6 and injured over 100 persons, including several U.S. citizens.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

Attack on U.S. Embassy in Moscow, September 13, 1995: A rocket-propelled grenade was fired through the window of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow, ostensibly in retaliation for U.S. strikes on Serb positions in Bosnia.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

Saudi Military Installation Attack, November 13, 1995: The Islamic Movement of Change planted a bomb in a Riyadh military compound that killed one U.S. citizen, several foreign national employees of the U.S. government, and over 40 others.  (President:  Bill Clinton)


Athens Embassy Attack, February 15, 1996: Unidentified assailants fired a rocket at the U.S. Embassy compound in Athens, causing minor damage to three diplomatic vehicles and some surrounding buildings. Circumstances of the attack suggested it was an operation carried out by the 17 November group.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

HAMAS Bus Attack, February 26, 1996: In Jerusalem, a suicide bomber blew up a bus, killing 26 persons, including three U.S. citizens, and injuring some 80 persons, including three other US citizens.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

Dizengoff Center Bombing, March 4, 1996: HAMAS and the Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ) both claimed responsibility for a bombing outside of Tel Aviv's largest shopping mall that killed 20 persons and injured 75 others, including 2 U.S. citizens.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

West Bank Attack, May 13, 1996: Arab gunmen opened fire on a bus and a group of Yeshiva students near the Bet El settlement, killing a dual U.S./Israeli citizen and wounding three Israelis. No one claimed responsibility for the attack, but HAMAS was suspected.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

Zekharya Attack, June 9, 1996: Unidentified gunmen opened fire on a car near Zekharya, killing a dual U.S./Israeli citizen and an Israeli. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) was suspected.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

Khobar Towers Bombing, June 25, 1996: A fuel truck carrying a bomb exploded outside the US military's Khobar Towers housing facility in Dhahran, killing 19 U.S. military personnel and wounding 515 persons, including 240 U.S. personnel. Several groups claimed responsibility for the attack.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

Sudanese Rebel Kidnapping, August 17, 1996: Sudan People's Liberation Army (SPLA) rebels kidnapped six missionaries in Mapourdit, including a U.S. citizen, an Italian, three Australians, and a Sudanese. The SPLA released the hostages 11 days later.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

Red Cross Worker Kidnappings, November 1, 1996: In Sudan a breakaway group from the Sudanese People's Liberation Army (SPLA) kidnapped three International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) workers, including a U.S. citizen, an Australian, and a Kenyan. On 9 December the rebels released the hostages in exchange for ICRC supplies and a health survey for their camp.   (President:  Bill Clinton)

Paris Subway Explosion, December 3, 1996: A bomb exploded aboard a Paris subway train as it arrived at the Port Royal station, killing two French nationals, a Moroccan, and a Canadian, and injuring 86 persons. Among those injured were one U.S. citizen and a Canadian. No one claimed responsibility for the attack, but Algerian extremists are suspected.  (President:  Bill Clinton)


Egyptian Letter Bombs, January 2-13, 1997: A series of letter bombs with Alexandria, Egypt, postmarks were discovered at Al-Hayat newspaper bureaus in Washington, New York City, London, and Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. Three similar devices, also postmarked in Egypt, were found at a prison facility in Leavenworth, Kansas. Bomb disposal experts defused all the devices, but one detonated at the Al-Hayat office in London, injuring two security guards and causing minor damage.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

Empire State Building Sniper Attack, February 23, 1997: A Palestinian gunman opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland, and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claimed this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine."  (President:  Bill Clinton)

Israeli Shopping Mall Bombing, September 4, 1997: Three suicide bombers of HAMAS detonated bombs in the Ben Yehuda shopping mall in Jerusalem, killing eight persons, including the bombers, and wounding nearly 200 others. A dual U.S./Israeli citizen was among the dead, and 7 U.S. citizens were wounded.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

Yemeni Kidnappings, October 30, 1997: Al-Sha'if tribesmen kidnapped a U.S. businessman near Sanaa. The tribesmen sought the release of two fellow tribesmen who were arrested on smuggling charges and several public works projects they claim the government promised them. They released the hostage on November 27.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

Murder of U.S. Businessmen in Pakistan, November 12, 1997: Two unidentified gunmen shot to death four U.S. auditors from Union Texas Petroleum Corporation and their Pakistani driver after they drove away from the Sheraton Hotel in Karachi. The Islami Inqilabi Council, or Islamic Revolutionary Council, claimed responsibility in a call to the U.S. Consulate in Karachi. In a letter to Pakistani newspapers, the Aimal Khufia Action Committee also claimed responsibility.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

Somali Hostage-takings, April 15, 1998: Somali militiamen abducted nine Red Cross and Red Crescent workers at an airstrip north of Mogadishu. The hostages included a U.S. citizen, a German, a Belgian, a French, a Norwegian, two Swiss, and one Somali. The gunmen were members of a sub-clan loyal to Ali Mahdi Mohammed, who controlled the northern section of the capital.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

U.S. Embassy Bombings in East Africa, August 7, 1998: A bomb exploded at the rear entrance of the U.S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya, killing 12 U.S. citizens, 32 Foreign Service Nationals (FSNs), and 247 Kenyan citizens. Approximately 5,000 Kenyans, 6 U.S. citizens, and 13 FSNs were injured. The U.S. Embassy building sustained extensive structural damage. Almost simultaneously, a bomb detonated outside the U.S. Embassy in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, killing 7 FSNs and 3 Tanzanian citizens, and injuring 1 U.S. citizen and 76 Tanzanians. The explosion caused major structural damage to the U.S. Embassy facility. The U.S. Government held Usama Bin Laden responsible.  (President:  Bill Clinton)


Angolan Aircraft Downing, January 2, 1999: A UN plane carrying one U.S. citizen, four Angolans, two Philippine nationals and one Namibian was shot down, according to a UN official. No deaths or injuries were reported. Angolan authorities blamed the attack on National Union for the Total Independence of Angola (UNITA) rebels. UNITA officials denied shooting down the plane.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

Ugandan Rebel Attack, February 14, 1999: A pipe bomb exploded inside a bar, killing five persons and injuring 35 others. One Ethiopian and four Ugandan nationals died in the blast, and one U.S. citizen working for USAID, two Swiss nationals, one Pakistani, one Ethiopian, and 27 Ugandans were injured. Ugandan authorities blamed the attack on the Allied Democratic Forces (ADF).  (President:  Bill Clinton)

Hutu Abductions, March 1, 1999: 150 armed Hutu rebels attacked three tourist camps in Uganda, killed four Ugandans, and abducted three U.S. citizens, six Britons, three New Zealanders, two Danish citizens, one Australian, and one Canadian national. Two of the U.S. citizens and six of the other hostages were subsequently killed by their abductors.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

Shell Platform Bombing, June 27, 1999: In Port Harcourt, Nigeria, armed youths stormed a Shell oil platform, kidnapping one U.S. citizen, one Nigerian national, and one Australian citizen, and causing undetermined damage. A group calling itself "Enough is Enough in the Niger River" claimed responsibility. Further seizures of oil facilities followed.   (President:  Bill Clinton)


Diplomatic Assassination in Greece, June 8, 2000: In Athens, Greece, two unidentified gunmen killed British Defense Attaché Stephen Saunders in an ambush. The Revolutionary Organization 17 November claimed responsibility.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

Kidnappings in Kyrgyzstan, August 12, 2000: In the Kara-Su Valley, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan took four U.S. citizens hostage. The Americans escaped on August 12.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

Attack on U.S.S. Cole, October 12, 2000: In Aden, Yemen, a small dingy carrying explosives rammed the destroyer U.S.S. Cole, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39 others. Supporters of Usama Bin Laden were suspected.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

Manila Bombing, December 30, 2000: A bomb exploded in a plaza across the street from the U.S. Embassy in Manila, injuring nine persons. The Moro Islamic Liberation Front was likely responsible.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

Philippines Hostage Incident, May 27, 2001: Muslim Abu Sayyaf guerrillas seized 13 tourists and 3 staff members at a resort on Palawan Island and took their captives to Basilan Island. The captives included three U.S. citizens: Guellermo Sobero and missionaries Martin and Gracia Burnham. Philippine troops fought a series of battles with the guerrillas between June 1 and June 3 during which 9 hostages escaped and two were found dead. The guerrillas took additional hostages when they seized the hospital in the town of Lamitan. On June 12, Abu Sayyaf spokesman Abu Sabaya claimed that Sobero had been killed and beheaded; his body was found in October. The Burnhams remained in captivity until June 2002.  (President:  Bill Clinton)

Terrorist Attacks on U.S. Homeland, September 11, 2001: Two hijacked airliners crashed into the twin towers of the World Trade Center. Soon thereafter, the Pentagon was struck by a third hijacked plane. A fourth hijacked plane, suspected to be bound for a high-profile target in Washington, crashed into a field in southern Pennsylvania. The attacks killed 3,025 U.S. citizens and other nationals. President Bush and Cabinet officials indicated that Usama Bin Laden was the prime suspect and that they considered the United States in a state of war with international terrorism. In the aftermath of the attacks, the United States formed the Global Coalition Against Terrorism.  (President:  George W. Bush)

[TroutFishingBear]

just one more thing can we please call the soldiers what they are poor (as in poverty level) kids (boys and girls) who have very little other chance at a better way of life .Thats why our government recruiters (hunts them down and seeks them out )  them,mostly  from low income areas.

How many people do you know in the service? I know 14. 12 of them are from wealthy families. They are in the service because they want to be, not because they are poor. Don't assume. I'm sure most aren't wealthy, but they aren't these dirt poor, people with no choices that you paint the picture like they are.

Also, to Tim1086: To answer your question if I am happier now that Bush is in office rather than Clinton:I'm actually having a lot less fun now that bush is in office instead of clinton. Clinton was so rediculous that he made all of america laugh all the time with his crazy lies. H
" And I, did not have sexual relations with that woman." LOL


The only reason somebody could even say clinton was a good president was because he was so rediculous and stupid. Therefore, he made for a lot of hilarious sattire. That I thank the man for :-)

To all republicans and democrats:
Something stupid
Most democrats would vote for their candidate if he was literally a donkey
Most republicans would vote for their candidate if he wa literally an elephant
This is rediculous, it should not be about the party! It should be about the saftey and well-beingness of our country. That is why George W. Bush is a far better president than MR. KERRY! Although they are both scumbags and really do not care about the common man like they say they do, Bush seems to care more for our people and country than Kerry does. Kerry is just in it to be president, not to make our country better.
Bush is not in it for that, he is working for our safety. If he was in it just be popular, like clinton was, bush would have went to the UN, thus keeping a horrible terrorist threat.

The above paragraph is why I will be an independent when I am old enough to vote. If I could vote in the upcoming election though, I would definitely vote for bush. I ENCOURAGE you to do the same if you love being a free country! I have seen what Democrats have done, my hometown is a prime example. Our city lands are under communistic control it seems like. We have no say of what laws are passed, who is the mayor, or things like that. It is the Democrats of my area to thank that for! (that and lazy people who won't petition about it)

[TroutFishingBear]

I find it rediculous that the Bush/Pro war side of this argument is giving fact after fact, yet the democrat/anti war side of this argument is giving no facts, except from a stupid book written by moore which fatboy (and several others) just proved wrong in one of his earlier posts. on this page. Hmmmmmm I wonder which is a more convincing argument... Many, many different facts from many, many different sources; or just an opinionated, incorrect version of a few INTERPRETATIONS
(see example below about interpretations)
For example:

could we ask ourselves a few questions please
when did all this middle east terrorist stuff start...not with GW or Clinton,it started with George's daddy the connections are made clear in movie and book there facts.

What facts MissFishy? seems they are wrong. If you want to know why, read some facts from fatboy's previous post to this one about how "george's daddy" didn't "Start the war" How it has been going for many, many years

Don't forget -- John Kerry is strong on defense:
He voted to kill the Bradley Fighting Vehicle;
He voted to kill the M-1 Abrams Tank;
He voted to kill every Aircraft carrier laid down from 1988;
He voted to kill the Aegis anti aircraft system;
He voted to Kill the F-15 strike eagle;
He voted to Kill the Block 60 F-16;
He voted to Kill the P-3 Orion upgrade;
He voted to Kill the B-1;
He voted to Kill the B-2;
He voted to Kill the Patriot anti-Missile system;
He voted to Kill the FA-18;
He voted to Kill the B-2;
He voted to Kill the F117.

More examples of real facts, not these rediculous ones from the book by moore.

I guess by making this post, i am giving you an opportunity to post FACTS below if you are antiwar/antibush side. Not facts from this book by moore because we have already proven that it is horribly biased and slanted.
If you are prowar/probush, don't post until the antiwar/antibush side gives some real facts. Which means we might as well lock this topic up for the prowar/probush side because they will only use tainted information that is easily proven wrong like found in moore's book.

[fozsey]

If anyone is interested there is a website that the author has laid out in detail the reasons that we are having such a problem with terrorists and specifically Islamic terrorists. The website is very straight forward and almost brutal in the way it describes the link between Fundimental Islam and Terrorism. The reading material is presented free of charge and although I don't agree with everything that Mr. Winn states he makes a very interesting argument which bears a striking similarity between Adof Hitler and the current Fundimental Islamic Religion. It was worth the read. If anyone has comments or opinions on this matter I would be happy to discuss them.

http://prophetofdoom.net/

[TimC1086]

I just dont get it....

Things people write here are stone cold fact, but anything Mr. Moore writes isnt? People criticize him for having a lack of factual information when they don't want to believe what he's saying.

MissFishy- I turn 18 on October 20th, just in time. lol. I guess we're the drastic minority here, better stick together.

[Fat Boy]

OK, for the record, I wasn't trying to put down Miss Fishy and I don't think anyone here want's to do that personally either.  When we disagree and write about it, it's tough to read sometimes.  I feel the same way when I read an opposing view.  I often have to erase half of what I post, copy, rewrite, erase, copy...etc....so that I don't time out , just to make a point and not tick people off - anyone.  But, no matter how you try, people will get offended just because they don't agree.  So, let's all remember that we have a lot in common, and if politics are the only major difference, let's let fishing be a stronger similarity and bond for us all and keep us friends as best we can.  It's difficult to bring up an opposing view without pointing it to something specific that was said before.  In one on one conversation, we can do all of this over a beer (or Pepsi) and say things with a smile, disagree, and not get into fisticuffs.  When we put the same conversation into written language on a web site, it looks worse sometimes than it really is.  Nobody means harm here.  Also, I respect the fact that some of our members that don't agree with the conservatives on this board but that does give us a different perspective, something to consider, agree or not (and the conservatives are the apparent vocal majority - that is, if there are more liberals they just aren't posting out there).  Whether we agree or not, it provokes thought, and that is healthy for us all.  It makes things interesting.  I don't know about you, but I look forward to all of the posts on this thread.  Some posts instill a chuckle, some make my blood boil, some make me wonder, and some make me respond.  Ain't it fun?      So, from that standpoint, thanks for a great debate, all of you.

In my last post, I was merely bringing up the fact that terrorism was around a very long time and the reasons are not simply because we went to war.  I haven't been to that site yet fozsey, but I'll get to it soon.  But just from my memory, and it's very apparent from just the list on the site that I provided (by the way, that's the U.S. State Department web site) the reasons for those attacks that have been identified are usually simply because people don't believe in Islam (or in other words, are the infidel).  Basically those extremists believe that murder of innocent people (not those carrying guns, self defense, or a real threat, but people like you and your family going to the market) justifies their political ambition of wiping out everyone that:

1)  doesn't believe in the Koran
2)  supports Israel or is an ally with any Jew of any nation
3)  sets foot to make a living in any Islamic nation (not to take it over mind you, but just to do business)

Ah man, it all sickens me, just reading that list.  And no matter who we want to blame in the U.S. for the past 50 years for any of it, none of those acts of terror are justified at all.  We have to be united on this fight, not divided.  This election year has caused much division in our country.  While we argue back and forth, even today I heard, the terrorists are making "dry run" attempts on our airplanes.  We can't sit back and let this happen again.  We can't let our guard down.  We, as citizens, must keep our eyes open and report any suspicious activity (and I mean something really suspicious, not simply because someone resembles an Islamic person on a plane).  But I'm afraid that it's going to take another horrible event or two to wake everyone up.  I remember for weeks after the 911 attack all of the media, TV and radio, were blabbing about how great America is and how we unite together.  I think that what foreigners see now (Middle Easterners that hate the West, I mean), is how easily divided we are.  I'm tired of this.  My daughter is going to finish her childhood soon and enter her pre voting years, and this is what she's inherited from our lack of security in the past.  Even though our national security is at an all time high, it's still dangerously low.  911 was caused by people weilding box cutters and saying they had sophisticated weapons for Pete's sake, not very technical.  What's going to be the next weapon of choice, toothpicks?  We have armed U.S. Marshals on the planes now.  But, humans have ingenuity, and if someone wants to commit an evil act, they'll find a way to do it.  It's always been like that, always will be.  Scary...way scary.

[Fat Boy]

Things people write here are stone cold fact, but anything Mr. Moore writes isnt? People criticize him for having a lack of factual information when they don't want to believe what he's saying.

Tim, I haven't seen the movie.  I will though because I need to know what he's saying period.  From what I've heard across all of the media is that his movie was a compilation of film clips, sound bytes, commentary (biased, of course), and interviews put together in a way that twists the actual truth of many of these facts into partial truths or pervarications so that it's very difficult to tell fact from fiction.  It's been labeled as art.  I guess I have to find out and research things myself.  I can't take it for fact any more than you can accept what I've typed before checking it out.

What I posted, and you can click on the link, is factual.  It's history, not a bit of spin.  The reasons for the attacks listed were based on the claims of responsibility by the perpetrators.  The Republicans and Democrats all put a spin on facts, it's politics.  It's up to us to sort it out.  If you want to know the real truth of Mr. Moore's movie, why not do some research from some unbiased sources on his statements before accepting his statements as truth?  You may find that some is very true, but I'd bet that you'd find that just by leaving a few details out, something that looks very real and true might actually be misleading.  His goal is to have Bush out of office.  Do you agree on that?  Now I did type your name, but really I'm referring to anyone that has followed this thread and is thinking about what you've said, so please don't take offense.  As I said above, I appreciate the response and respect your opinion.

Anyway, when I was 18 I believed everything that I saw on the news including their opinions.  I read Washington Post editorials and voted my conscience at the time for Jimmy Carter, because if the Post printed it, it had to be true.  It made sense too, all that rhetoric, because my environment at the time conditioned me to believe it and when I saw it in print, it just seemed to bolster my opinion.  Here was a nice guy, all smiles, on the front page each day of the Post while Saturday Night Live made ol' Gerald Ford look like a bumbling fool.  My mind was decided when I went to the Polls.  I went through High School and my first year of college thinking that my young mind could easily make the right decision, influenced greatly by the views of the education system in my area and the media as well.  I grew up in a liberal environment.  I was a liberal Democrat.  My dad was a conservative.  I grew up too young for Vietnam, but old enough to hear the arguments against that war and to see the way everyone treated our soldiers back them.  It was shameful.  But, they had good arguments and proposed solutions that just had to be better than what we had in place.  Little did I know much of it would come back to haunt me.

As time went on, I began to discover the things that the party tried to make me feel guilty for really weren't my fault at all, and that the evils that they presented to me were really the same things that we all strive for.  That you can't legislate fairness to one group at the expense of another, etc.  Anyway, I kept to the party line until I heard Reagan speak.  Carter was an honest and decent man, but the nation just wasn't going the right direction at the time in my mind.  Reagan convinced me that he'd lead us there.  But, I was then a registered Democrat voting Republican.  It took me 8 more years of listening to both party's views, researching policies, etc. to understand just where they were coming from.  I finally registered as a Republican after Clinton's first term.  I didn't do it because of what any politician said, I did it because enacted policies cost me and my family money, lot's of money.  And, today, although I agree with much of the Republican platform, the Republican Party policies are costing me and my family a lot of money again (and it's not gas but that is a concern for sure, I'm talking way more money).  So, as I struggle in my career to advance in spite of the roadblocks set before me, I try to vote in my family's best interest, so that I don't have further set backs that can harm my daughter's future.  Why don't I trust the Democrats any longer?  Because it seems that they are so desparate to regain power that they'll say or promote anything to get a vote.  Kerry is no different than the past 4 candidates.  You tell the voters what they want to hear and voila, you get votes.  Maybe what we want to hear isn't really what's best for us as a nation.  Maybe a leader isn't someone that will change a direction because popular opinion says to, but rather someone with a conviction and a direction that is steadfast, and direct.  Anyway, that's my view and don't expect others to share it.

The good thing about posting here is that if you print or save this stuff, 20 years from now you might read it and wonder why we said what we said.  I was really set in my ways at 18, I was dead right, my dad was dead wrong...period.  Now, I look back after researching the reasons for what happened in history back then and wonder just why I didn't understand the truth back then.  I'm not going to get into that, but think about it.  You'll understand some day.  Maybe you'll continue believing what you do now, I don't know.  Who knows, if I live another 20 years I might look back and read this stuff and wonder what the heck was I thinking...

[Fat Boy]

Holy Cow, has Cider been banned or something?  I thought he'd have chimed in on this topic by now, LOL! 

I guess I kinda hijacked this thread.  Sorry!  I'll try to stick to the original topic from now on.  I'm a motor mouth of the keyboard for sure...

[fozsey]

I don't thnk Mikey Boy is back from paradice yet. Trust me he will be back soon and he has a lot of catching up to do and esp. in this thread. I am looking forward to his input here. Do let me know what you think about that website Kevin. It was much more than enlightening. It is very scary at the very least.

BTW, in response to your question about what they will drum up next, I pose the following possibility. The experts say...and you know what an expert is don't you? An X is a hasbeen and a spurt is someone that drips under pressure. Anyway, the experts say that the next choice of weapons of the terrorists will be a sailboat sailed right into San Fransisco Bay or New York Harbor with a Nuclear weapon. You might ask yourself where on gods green earth would they get a Nuke now. When we invaded Afganistan and sent the Taliban and Al Quida on the run they went in the only direction they could which was to Pakistan. Now they are hiding in Pakistan and as long as they aren't causing any trouble noone will bother them. Pakistan won't let us go in and get them either. Pretty bad deal in of itself, but there is a far greater concern. Pakistan has 20 verified Nuclear warheads. Al Quida is one bullet away from having control of those 20 Nukes. Any guess as to where those 20 Nukes would end up in the event that Mr. Mushurov is asassinated? They might end up on a truck. They might end up on a boat. They might end up on a plane. They might end up in a suitcase, but one thing is for sure, they will all end up here in one form or another. When that happens the 3000 deaths on Sept. 11th will hale in comparison. The estimated numbers released indicate that 300,000 deaths from one attack isn't out of the question. You might think this is a little far fetched. So did I 2 days before a group of @$$HOLE$ flew some planes into our buildings. There is absolutely no way we can let up on these people, ever.

[Fat Boy]

Anyone mind if we split this thread into 2 separate ones?  We are way off track from the original topic.  How about splitting it somewhere and have the last part titled, "Terrorism" or something like that?  The posts are good, all of them.  Y'all are great and that's what makes this site so special!

[TimC1086]

FB, I know what you're saying is factual, and I just have to assume what Michael moore says is factual too (at least parts of it; some of the movie was a stretch).  As for changing parties...

Any man who is under 30 and is not a Liberal has no heart; and
any man who is over 30 and not a Conservative has no brains.
- Winston Churchill

So I guess we'll see how i turn out.

[missfishylicious]

Well I'm not going to quote you kevin (hope you don't mind me calling you Kevin ,Fatboy just sounds to insulting) because I don't think scotts computer can handle it 
what I meant to say was "middle eastern atacks on our soil ".the first atack happened dureing clinton but don't you think it took the terrorists a while to set things up they were mad at bush over the first war in kuwait .
I realise the middle east is a mess and all I want to do is stay out of there hair. I don't think we should back isreal, there trouble makers. the arabs don't think they belong there ,and I agree. how would we feel if the jewish people decided there promised land was in your back yard and ocupied our country ? I don't think we would like it to much if we love the isrealies so much why don't we just give them some land over here and set them up with a little country of there own.then the palistinians could have there land back and the arabs would be happy .maybe even like america .but we would never do that because we would loose our middle eastern foot hold ,why do you think isreal was so worried about us going into afganistan .simple because if we have our own foothold we don't need them and there nothing without our backing.they are the problem in the middle east

[missfishylicious]

just one more thing can we please call the soldiers what they are poor (as in poverty level) kids (boys and girls) who have very little other chance at a better way of life .Thats why our government recruiters (hunts them down and seeks them out )  them,mostly  from low income areas.

How many people do you know in the service? I know 14. 12 of them are from wealthy families. They are in the service because they want to be, not because they are poor. Don't assume. I'm sure most aren't wealthy, but they aren't these dirt poor, people with no choices that you paint the picture like they are.

Also, to Tim1086: To answer your question if I am happier now that Bush is in office rather than Clinton:I'm actually having a lot less fun now that bush is in office instead of Clinton. Clinton was so ridiculous that he made all of America laugh all the time with his crazy lies. H
" And I, did not have sexual relations with that woman." LOL


The only reason somebody could even say Clinton was a good president was because he was so ridiculous and stupid. Therefore, he made for a lot of hilarious sattire. That I thank the man for :-)

To all republicans and democrats:
Something stupid
Most democrats would vote for their candidate if he was literally a donkey
Most republicans would vote for their candidate if he was literally an elephant
This is ridiculous, it should not be about the party! It should be about the safety and well-boringness of our country. That is why George W. Bush is a far better president than MR. KERRY! Although they are both scumbags and really do not care about the common man like they say they do, Bush seems to care more for our people and country than Kerry does. Kerry is just in it to be president, not to make our country better.
Bush is not in it for that, he is working for our safety. If he was in it just be popular, like Clinton was, bush would have went to the UN, thus keeping a horrible terrorist threat.

The above paragraph is why I will be an independent when I am old enough to vote. If I could vote in the upcoming election though, I would definitely vote for bush. I ENCOURAGE you to do the same if you love being a free country! I have seen what Democrats have done, my hometown is a prime example. Our city lands are under communistic control it seems like. We have no say of what laws are passed, who is the mayor, or things like that. It is the Democrats of my area to thank that for! (that and lazy people who won't petition about it)

to answer your question My father fought in world war II and brother died from agent orange caused cancer (agent orange is a defoliant our country droped to help clear the jungles of Vietnam )in there defense they say they didn't know it was a carcinogen  at the time.He spent his entire life from age 18 till his death in the army of the united states ,spent eight years in Vietnam ,had to purple hearts stepped on a land mine and watch his beast friend obliterated next to him .

my two younger brothers still joined the marines and army and I know a lot of people who have kids in the war right now for instance I know a guy who's son was in the same camp as Americas sweetheart lets just say we didn't get the whole truth on her.

I know more about the history of this country than you'll ever learn in school and if you think you know more, then why don't you see the movie or read the book just for entertainment purposes.
 it is kind of funny all your friends are seeing it  you don't want to be left out do you

by the way you say your not old enough to vote so why not let the adults handle it and when you turn 18 you can join the military if you think blindly following your leader is a good idea.

one last thing if you were paying attention all along you would have noticed I said I'm not  democrat and it's pretty obvous I'm not a republican hhhmmmm what could I be?

[USMC130FE]

Quote "just one more thing can we please call the soldiers what they are poor (as in poverty level) kids (boys and girls) who have very little other chance at a better way of life .Thats why our government recruiters (hunts them down and seeks them out )  them,mostly  from low income areas.Why do you think they don't reinstate the draft...because then there (the rich backers of GW) sons and daughters would have to fight" end quote!

Nice Missfishy.  Thanks for the straight slap in the face    Where in the world did you get this info from??  Mr Moore tell you?

Steve