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MFF US Northeast => Maine => Topic started by: CLAMFARMER on Nov 01, 2019, 05:37 PM

Title: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
Post by: CLAMFARMER on Nov 01, 2019, 05:37 PM
Got to my brother, Keith’s, Tuesday night. Hadn’t rained as much as we would have  liked.

The streams where generally too clear. We did see some fish in a couple of them but they weren’t interested. Met a a couple really good and knowledgeable guys at the first place. One, Jeff, is an Alaska and Africa fishing guide. The other was a local that fished nearly daily in local water. Both were informative and friendly. While the fish weren’t cooperating, we exchanged lots of good stories, had some good laughs and learned stuff. NICE!

We road around and saw pretty much the same or lesser conditions..... low, clear and empty!  :’(

Finally we found a stream with some color. It rained more at the headwaters of this bit of water. Nice light green flow. AND There were fish! My brother hooked up and landed two nice female landlockeds to my zero. I was able to land one nice one about the same size later on. First one ever for me on the “pin rig”. Interesting methodology!

Keith with his first one (Sorry about the blocked scenery, but we are sworn to being tip lipped)
(https://i.imgur.com/l6UvTGF.jpg)

My first one and only that first day
(https://i.imgur.com/rLMPqv3.jpg)

The next day the water had dropped and cleared some. We were among the first one there at daybreak. The fish were pretty active at first. Hooked one on the 3rd or 4th cast and lost it during acrobatics! Landed a small (20”ish)  male released. Keith went down steam a bit and had a couple fish on briefly including a large brown that spit the hook near shore. I hooked a coupe more fish. One another decent brown that I lost. I did manage one more male which I kept for the smoker or gravlax.
(https://i.imgur.com/5vFNIHg.jpg)
I hooked another fish toward the end of the day. The stream was getting clearer the whole time and we could easily see fish. Some guys were spot fishing and attempting  to appear not to be flossing.... haha. By the time we decided to leave, the fish were pretty spooked and a lot more people were showing up - after work or  school, I suppose. We headed to a walleye  river but had no luck there.

This fly guy landed this one after a long play. beautiful fish! He was released.
(https://i.imgur.com/qpCthij.jpg)

Interestingly,  these fish can’t successfully spawn though they go through all the motions with no viable progeny. Bummer. I have to get more info but I remember something about alewives and thiamin deficiency.

We didn’t slay them but had a great time and met some top notch folks and watched a few ding dongs!  :o 8) :thumbup_smilie: :w00t: :flag:
Title: Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
Post by: filetandrelease on Nov 01, 2019, 06:03 PM

 Glad you fellas had some success
 Nic pics ,
Title: Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
Post by: TightLinesMaine on Nov 01, 2019, 06:56 PM
Awesome report CLAMFARMER, that's a real nice salmon you caught, looks like she could be a 2 footer+ maybe?  And man, that huge male salmon at the end is a beast! I'd be in heaven up there.
Title: Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
Post by: Jim C. on Nov 01, 2019, 07:06 PM
I've been waiting for your report, Joe!  It's a good one 8)  Great quality fish. I assume you were in the Fingers. Fishing taking eggs or flies?
Title: Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
Post by: CLAMFARMER on Nov 01, 2019, 07:08 PM
Awesome report CLAMFARMER, that's a real nice salmon you caught, looks like she could be a 2 footer+ maybe?  And man, that huge male salmon at the end is a beast! I'd be in heaven up there.

Your report and catches were more impressive! We were drifting egg sacks on a few fish were knew were there.  You put the time in and found the spots. Having said that, the locals and serious guys there told us the main event isn’t for a couple weeks. If I can get my buck and time and money allow, plus good water conditions and reports, I may well head there again this month. It WAS a blast!!! Long drive though..... Most of the other good streams just didn’t have the flow to fish. Once there is some decent rain, there will be some wicked fishing!!!
Title: Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
Post by: CLAMFARMER on Nov 01, 2019, 07:17 PM
I've been waiting for your report, Joe!  It's a good one 8)  Great quality fish. I assume you were in the Fingers. Fishing taking eggs or flies?

Thanks Jim! Mostly eggs. the bead thing wasn’t producing much there. I tried but really don’t know the rig well. I did catch the fist fish on a pin rig with egg sack. Saw one fish taken on a fly. The larger picture was a fly catch also. I have some doubts if it bit though. There was a pair of big fish like that laying there all morning and many threw everything at them. I just wonder if the line was in the mouth before the fly..... There was flossing going on as well.... It will be really good when all the streams have some water!!!! The fisherfolk will be well spread out ad the fish will be in well. One guy said he can’t wait for the temps to go below freezing so the fly guys will stay home! haha. There WAS quite a bit of water whipping going on.  ::) :wacko:
Title: Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
Post by: Jim C. on Nov 01, 2019, 07:25 PM
Thanks, Joe.  And congrats again. I'm heading out that way in the next couple weeks.  I am throwing together tackle to handle a variety of options.  The bead thing isn't part of of my arsenal though or the centerpinning. Those guys can get some drifts!

Thanks Jim! Mostly eggs. the bead thing wasn’t producing much there. I tried but really don’t know the rig well. I did catch the fist fish on a pin rig with egg sack. Saw one fish taken on a fly. The larger picture was a fly catch also. I have some doubts if it bit though. There was a pair of big fish like that laying there all morning and many threw everything at them. I just wonder if the line was in the mouth before the fly..... There was flossing going on as well.... It will be really good when all the streams have some water!!!! The fisherfolk will be well spread out ad the fish will be in well. One guy said he can’t wait for the temps to go below freezing so the fly guys will stay home! haha. There WAS quite a bit of water whipping going on.  ::) :wacko:
Title: Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
Post by: taxid on Nov 01, 2019, 09:18 PM
Thanks for sharing Clamfarmer. Nice pictures.

I just got the O.K. to import Atlantic salmon eggs and start raising them on my fish farm. I'm looking forward to it especially since harvest is hook and line! Do they really fight as hard as they say they do? I've only caught small ones in Maine and truthfully don't remember.
Title: Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
Post by: lowaccord66 on Nov 02, 2019, 05:25 AM
Your report and catches were more impressive! We were drifting egg sacks on a few fish were knew were there.  You put the time in and found the spots. Having said that, the locals and serious guys there told us the main event isn’t for a couple weeks. If I can get my buck and time and money allow, plus good water conditions and reports, I may well head there again this month. It WAS a blast!!! Long drive though..... Most of the other good streams just didn’t have the flow to fish. Once there is some decent rain, there will be some wicked fishing!!!


It gets crazy when the browns move in!  Nice work on the salmon.
Title: Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
Post by: filetandrelease on Nov 03, 2019, 06:05 AM

 With all this rain we just had it might help things along a little sooner , there are already browns in some tribs 😉
Title: Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
Post by: franklin fisher on Nov 03, 2019, 02:45 PM
  Looks like a fun trip.  Well done!
Title: Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
Post by: deerhunter on Nov 04, 2019, 07:38 AM
very nice lookin salmon, clamster
Title: Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
Post by: lowaccord66 on Nov 04, 2019, 03:47 PM
With all this rain we just had it might help things along a little sooner , there are already browns in some tribs 😉

I heard that Fred but its still warm so that equals people.  I'm not a huge fan of people so I will wait until it's unbearable and then I will let them have it.
Title: Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
Post by: CLAMFARMER on Nov 05, 2019, 03:48 AM
I heard that Fred but its still warm so that equals people.  I'm not a huge fan of people so I will wait until it's unbearable and then I will let them have it.

HAHA! Yep! There was a guy Met that said he can’t wait for it to be cold enough that the fly and bobber guys stay home!
Title: Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
Post by: filetandrelease on Nov 05, 2019, 05:42 AM

LOL , well Jon come up in late January or February not to many around then 😉
 Right now it isn’t to busy after Columbus weekend the OOTs drop way off  , then it’s mostly those fancy pin and flies persons 👍🎣
Title: Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
Post by: taxid on Nov 05, 2019, 03:32 PM


Interestingly,  these fish can’t successfully spawn though they go through all the motions with no viable progeny. Bummer. I have to get more info but I remember something about alewives and thiamin deficiency.




LEETOWN, W.Va. — Great Lakes fish in the salmon family that rely on the fish “alewife” as part of their diet face a major obstacle in restoring naturally reproducing populations, according to new U.S. Geological Survey research published in the journal Fish and Shellfish Immunology.

For more than a decade researchers have been trying to unravel the mystery of why Lake Trout and other salmonids that consume alewife produce spawn that die young. Although researchers have recognized the connection between thiamine and the death of the young fish for a decade, the new study provides an additional clue; fish that survive the initial impact of thiamine deficiency are experiencing changes in immune function that resemble those occurring in humans with inflammatory diseases.

Early Mortality Syndrome, or EMS, results in embryonic mortality in salmon, steelhead trout, brown trout, lake trout, and Chinook salmon. The symptoms of EMS include loss of equilibrium, swimming in a spiral pattern, lethargy, hyper-excitability, hemorrhage and death, which occurs between hatching and first feeding.

“Vitamin B1, or Thiamine, is an essential nutrient that animals must obtain through their diet,” said Chris Ottinger, a USGS immunologist and lead author of the study. “We found that alewives, one of the main diets of many Great Lakes fish, contains an enzyme called “thiaminase” that destroys the thiamine in fish that consume them. The lack of B1 leads to Early Mortality Syndrome as well as the newly reported immune dysfunctions that may be perpetuating infectious diseases in this fish community.”



“There is some debate as to whether the thiaminase that is obtained through the consumption of the alewives is coming directly from the fish or from bacteria associated with the fish,” said Ottinger. “Either way the fish that eats the alewives becomes thiamine deficient through the destruction of the thiamine they obtain in their diet resulting in EMS as well the immune dysfunctions we have demonstrated.”

Thiamine is essential for energy production in cells, normal nerve function and also is an antioxidant. Other dysfunctions associated with Great Lakes salmonids consumption of alewives include changes in behavior and reduced ability to capture prey.

“In vitro immune function in thiamine-replete and-depleted lake trout (Salvelinus namaycush)” is available onlinein the journal Fish & Shellfish Immunologyby C. A. Ottinger, D. C. Honeyfield, C. L. Densmorea, and L. R. Iwanowicz.

http://blogs.twincities.com/outdoors/2014/04/16/are-alewife-killing-great-lakes-trout-and-salmon/?doing_wp_cron=1573011034.6040658950805664062500

 
Title: Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
Post by: woodchip1 on Nov 05, 2019, 06:48 PM
Have other bodies of water had the same problem with vit.B-1 Deficiency . Do they believe it is totally Elyies  and does not have anything because of specific  bodies of water??
Title: Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
Post by: lowaccord66 on Nov 06, 2019, 10:21 AM
LOL , well Jon come up in late January or February not to many around then 😉
 Right now it isn’t to busy after Columbus weekend the OOTs drop way off  , then it’s mostly those fancy pin and flies persons 👍🎣

Call me fancy Fred! 
Title: Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
Post by: westernmas on Nov 06, 2019, 10:40 AM
Call me fancy Fred!

I'll be getting fancy this weekend.  Can't wait!
Title: Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
Post by: taxid on Nov 07, 2019, 04:11 AM
Have other bodies of water had the same problem with vit.B-1 Deficiency . Do they believe it is totally Elyies  and does not have anything because of specific  bodies of water??

Well alewives do produce thiaminase so it should be a problem everywhere. However it appears to only be a problem if you want natural reproduction. BTW gizzard shad have the same issue.

That said the article does say some scientists think there may be something different going on that the alewives cause.

"There is some debate as to whether the thiaminase that is obtained through the consumption of the alewives is coming directly from the fish or from bacteria associated with the fish,” said Ottinger. “Either way the fish that eats the alewives becomes thiamine deficient through the destruction of the thiamine they obtain in their diet resulting in EMS as well the immune dysfunctions we have demonstrated.”
Title: Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
Post by: woodchip1 on Nov 07, 2019, 07:31 AM
if  alewives do produce thiaminase and its effects other fish  with reproduction. How can the reproduce Sounds like maybe they will stock Lamprey eels next??????
Title: Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
Post by: taxid on Nov 07, 2019, 09:01 AM
if  alewives do produce thiaminase and its effects other fish  with reproduction. How can the reproduce Sounds like maybe they will stock Lamprey eels next??????

Very good question about other species and reproduction. I wasn't able to find an answer with a google search. However I did find that fish that varied their diet and didn't feed exclusively on fish that contain thiaminase would be fine. Apparently at least some salmonids feed exclusively on alewives so have this issue? Perhaps when the alewive population is down and they are forced to feed on, say, smelt reproduction is more successful? Scratch that. Smelt have Thiaminase too. I wonder if Gobies do?   

BTW here is a list of fish species that contain Thiaminase and a list that don't.

Those that do:

Atlantic menhaden (Brevoortia tyrannus)
Atlantic herring (Clupea harengus)
Baltic herring (Clupea harengus membras)
Broad-striped anchovy (Anchoa hepsetus)
Brown bullhead (Amelurus nebulosus)
Californian anchovy (Engraulis mordax)
Capelin (Mallotus villosus)
Channel catfish (Ictalurus punctatus)
Common carp (Cyprinus carpio)
Chub mackerel / Pacific mackerel (Scomber japonicus)
Clams (family Veneridae)
Gulf menhaden (Brevoortia patronus)
Lake whitefish (Coregonus clupeaformis)
Lobster (Homarus americanus)
Mediterranean mussel (Mytilus galloprovincialis)
Rainbow smelt (Osmerus mordax)
Round whitefish (Prosopium cylindraceum)
Ruby snapper (Etelis carbunculus)
Scaled sardine (Harengula jaguana)
Scallops (Placopecten grandis)
Skipjack tuna (Katsuwonus pelamis)
White bass (Morone chrysops)
Yellowfin tuna (Neothunnus macropterus)

Here is a list of some species that don’t contain thiaminase:

Atlantic cod (Gadus morhua)
Atlantic hake / silver hake (Merluccius bilinearis)
Atlantic halibut (Hippoglossus hippoglossus)
Atlantic mackerel (Scomber scombrus)
Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar)
Black crappie (Pomoxis nigromaculatus)
Black sea bass (Centropristis striata)
Bluegill (Lepomis macrochirus)
Brown trout (Salmo trutta)
Cisco/lake herring (Coregonus artedi)
Coho salmon (Oncorhynchus kisutch)
Haddock (Melanogrammus aeglefinus)
Hake (Urophycis spp)
Hardhead catfish (Ariopsis felis)
Lake trout (Salvelinus namaycush)
Largemouth bass (Micropterus salmoides)
Lemon sole (Microstomus kitt)
Mullet (Mugilidae spp)
Northern pike (Esox lucius)
Pollock/Pollack (Pollachius pollachius, Pollachius virens)
Pond smelt (Hypomesus olidus)
Rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss)
Redfish / red perch / rose fish (Sebastes norvegicus)
Rock bass (Ambloplites rupestris)
Silver seatrout (Cynoscion nothus)
Smallmouth bass (Micropterus dolomieu)
Southern kingfish / king whiting (Menticirrhus americanus)
Tilapia (Oreochromis spp)
Winter flounder (Pseudopleuronectes americanus)
Yellowtail flounder (Limanda ferruginea)
Yellow perch (Perca flavescens)
Yellow pike / walleye (Sander vitreus)
Title: Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
Post by: taxid on Nov 07, 2019, 09:06 AM
Looks like Round Gobies do not contain Thiaminase.

"Based on results from the radiometric assay, Lake Michigan round goby have been previously reported to contain no thiaminase activity (Tillitt et al., 2005)."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6042866/