MyFishFinder Forum
MFF US Northeast => Maine => Topic started by: CLAMFARMER on Apr 29, 2016, 06:12 AM
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Interesting correlation: I’ve been at a few meetings lately where most shellfish peole have observed very slow growth of recent years clam and mussel sets. I sell clams at Maine Shellfish. They keep a tight reign on shucked clam yields. The guy in charge of this tells me the meat yield per shell stock pound is substantially lower than ever in their records for this time of year. Clams SHOULD be bulking up heavily in preparation for a late May spawn. They are way behind. This would seem to indicate a lack of feed and corroborate this article:
http://bangordailynews.com/2016/04/28/environment/the-gulf-of-maine-is-changing-color-what-does-that-mean/
"The reason is an increase over the past 80 years in rainfall and the resulting dissolved organic carbon — a dark “tea” steeped from dead leaves and soil, lab officials said — that flows into the gulf, which is interfering with the ability of microscopic marine plants known as phytoplankton to grow.
Researchers at Bigelow Lab, led by Dr. William Balch, conduct transects of the Gulf of Maine each year, taking samples and logging data as they traverse the width of the gulf between Maine and Nova Scotia. They have been recording the color of the gulf and as part of a recent study compared their measurements with those collected by the lab’s namesake, Henry Bryant Bigelow, in 1912.
“The conclusion is that the gulf has yellowed over the last century, particularly in coastal Maine waters,” the lab indicated in a recent news release.
As plants, phytoplankton contain chlorophyll and grow via sun-fueled photosynthesis. The color change in the gulf is reducing the amount of sunlight that penetrates the water’s surface, however, hampering the growth rates of phytoplankton.”
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Good post, all fact and no sentiment.
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Good post, all fact and no sentiment.
1+1= x
Good thing his name ain’t "Dr. James E. Hansen “, Right? :rotflol:
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I believe it clamfarmer, there are years of data and evidence that softshelled clams and oysters are going to really be hurting as our climate changes and warms. State and federal governments should really be experimenting with new propagation methods and regulations in order to enhance bed and or eliminate predators (green crabs) to help the clams and clammers or start looking at other possible organisms that could be exploited commercially.
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it looks like using the ocean as a toilet for the last 500 years is starting to catch up to us.
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1+1= x
Good thing his name ain’t "Dr. James E. Hansen “, Right? :rotflol:
I have no idea what you are on, I mean trying to say.
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I believe it clamfarmer, there are years of data and evidence that softshelled clams and oysters are going to really be hurting as our climate changes and warms. State and federal governments should really be experimenting with new propagation methods and regulations in order to enhance bed and or eliminate predators (green crabs) to help the clams and clammers or start looking at other possible organisms that could be exploited commercially.
Actually, there is a bunch of stuff going on like you mention. Lots of stock enhancement experimentation is happening. The issue is so large, a couple thousand miles of coast line and 10s of thousands of acres, it is not really something that can be addressed except on a localized level, i.e. individual or community aquaculture. There ARE a lot of flats now where clam sets dissolve before they can grow enough shell to survive. Green crabs “graze” on the ones they can get to. The ones on the higher and more hard flats have a chance. Netting plots of clams helps. Trapping crabs helps.
If the clams don’t have an ample food source, they just won’t grow. We’re seeing it in our area. On top of everything else, not a good seen.
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it looks like using the ocean as a toilet for the last 500 years is starting to catch up to us.
It’s mostly the last 100.
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:rotflol:
I have no idea what you are on, I mean trying to say.
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Clams don't bulk up in prep for the spawn no more than a man does before spreading seed. They are stationary shellfish not migratory spawners about to travel thousands of miles. They increase meat volume in the spring because feed is more abundant in the spring and summer. Volume also varies highly by location, current, soil medium, etc. I operated a shucking shop for a long time and you could tell where a Clam came from just by yield. Wards cove always produced 5 quarts to the 50. Walk literally 100 feet across the road to the picnic area and it dropped to 4 quarts on 50.
Maine Shells yield is down for 2 common sense reasons.
1.) This spring has been a slow start even with the mild winter. Wind, storms, Temps have them blowing out a month later than last year. Last year March 16th I started breaking 200 pounds. This year it was April 12th. When they aren't showing diggers go to hard pack, rocks, sand. More people dig with a hoe than pull. Clams in these areas always have lower yields than their soft mud brothers. Even I hoe dug up until April. The story was the same the length of the coast. Leading to a small yield run on the market
2.) Maine Shell has always been the low ball market. Along with A.C. inc and Maritime they try to drive down the market price in order to stick up on cheap frozen gallons. Come summer they thaw them. Mix them half and half with fresh shucked and sell them at astronomical profits. In recent years however the market has seen an influx of new markets and buyers that dwarfs Maine Shells harvester price year round. Particularly in the clam belt where the majority of Maines clams come from. Right now for example RDR is $2.25 for a clean run with no breakage. Today I had 223 pounds of beautiful 4 inch average clams. Why would I sell to Maine Shell for $1.50 and make $330 and change when I can sell to RDR and make $500? At the moment on a 60 bushel a week average id be loosing a forutne as would anyone else.Why would anyone with a good run sell to them?
The only people left selling to Maine Shell are d**n few holdouts like you or people selling complete garbage (broken ones,small ones and half washed) that they can't sell anywhere else. Maine Shell is the garbage buyer because they pay the garbage price. Until they manage to compete with the new markets they can expect the yield count out of the trash runs to stay low. I can't imagine why you are still dealing with them?
If the tea stained water theory were true wouldn't clams just feed more often to make up for less feed in the water? Clams blow out when they are filtering or spawning. If we are to belive this then clams should be blown out all the time trying to feed. Which is by no means the case. It would also be news to anyone east of Steuben that there's a yield problem with clams. Last year the buyers everywhere here were flooded with large meaty runs. So big and so many they had trouble marketing them during steamer season. You'll find now that they are blowing out again and that your area has its fair share. Get out of the same old holes and land on soft mud, channel banks or mussel beds. They are still there. The bio lady for our area came around last fall sampling with her little coffee can device and told us cow island bar was very barren of clams and we should consider measures to improve it. We all sat there in silent astonishment because we all knew the one thing she apparently didn't: clams are so thick there that an ant on tooth pick stilts couldnt cross the mud without stepping on a hole when they blow out. They just happened to be buttoned up at the time and when they drop I can't turn them with a 24 inch sand worm hoe. How is a 6 inch deep coffee can going to pick them up? They don't know anymore about clam ecosystems than my bluetick does. If you wanted to know about cooing would you talk to a chef or someone who spent a lot of time reading cook books?
How can they take samples from 1912 and compare them to samples from a recent study and make a conclusion one way or the other? There's 100 years in between where samples weren't taken. It's Ludacris to make this assessment. Just taking the samples in slightly different areas from the 1912 samples could provide a different color.sample. look where the guagus enters milbridge bay. It creates a distinct ocean green/dark brown line for miles down the bay. A 1 foot difference in sample location there could yield you 2 completely different results. The ocean is constantly moving, mixing, rough, windy. The Gulfstream and current always moving and mixing. Look at the rainfall tables over the last 100 years. Which are much more specific and better documented than the water samples in this study. Then consider the minute increase in rainfall. Then consider the vastness, depth and volume of the earths oceans. Do you honestly find it conceivable that the small increase in rain water through leafs made enough difference to seriously alter the color of the ocean to the point it effects plankton growth? Making this assessment on samples taken 100 years apart?this is the definition of ridiculousness. There's so many variables at play here that it would take decades of continuously collected data to make a serious assessment.
Assuming it rained more it's safe to assume it was overcast more. Who's to say the lack of feed isn't a result of reduced sun light for which clam feed relies on?? If I had to hazard an "educated hypothesis" (like the foundation of most these studies) I would say this outfit is producing findings in an effort to show proof of theory to try and obtain a government grant or funding of some sort so they have abother million in tax revenue to blow. 10 years from now another group will spend millions in a study only to tell us the ocean is clearing.
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Clams don't bulk up in prep for the spawn no more than a man does before spreading seed. They are stationary shellfish not migratory spawners about to travel thousands of miles. They increase meat volume in the spring because feed is more abundant in the spring and summer. Volume also varies highly by location, current, soil medium, etc. I operated a shucking shop for a long time and you could tell where a Clam came from just by yield. Wards cove always produced 5 quarts to the 50. Walk literally 100 feet across the road to the picnic area and it dropped to 4 quarts on 50.
Assuming it rained more it's safe to assume it was overcast more. Who's to say the lack of feed isn't a result of reduced sun light for which clam feed relies on?? If I had to hazard an "educated hypothesis" (like the foundation of most these studies) I would say this outfit is producing findings in an effort to show proof of theory to try and obtain a government grant or funding of some sort so they have abother million in tax revenue to blow. 10 years from now another group will spend millions in a study only to tell us the ocean is clearing.
Marine scientists are just like clam diggers, except,well, they keep written records over long periods of time and don’t generally publicize anything until results are consistently replicated. So, this means that an "educated hypothesis” needs to be tested with data and repeatable results. A hypothesis, no matter how educated, is only a hopeful guess.
Clams, and shellfish in general are basically dormant all winter. The use reserves the gained during the previous summer and fall to survive over the winter. Soft shell clams spawn in our area beginning roughly mid May. At the time of spawn, their body mass is at it’s highest. Their body mass is lowest immediately after spawning. So, after a clam spawns it is at it’s least body mass. It then feeds most of the summer and gains a good portion of it’s mass back and then uses a good part of that to make it through the winter. As spring arrives and water temps rise, palnton blooms. This is coincidental (and the clams evolved in this milieu) with the clams need to spawn beginning mid may well into June depending on water temp. Between the time clams come out of effective winter dormancy and spawn the gain substantial body mass, they bulk up so to speak. The body mass, at it’s peak is largely [the belly]. It is spawning material, i.e. sperm and eggs. This is also the time the clams are at their sweetest, because they are loaded with glycogen in their sperm and eggs.
TT mentions the clams should be feeding more if there is less feed in the water. They really can’t feed anymore than constantly. Once they begin to feed, they are siphoning, pumping water continually to glean every bit of nutrient then can. If the soup is thin, it takes longer for the clams to development body mass and grow in general. If they are into a thick stew they develop accordingly, bulking up.
In our area, Frenchman Bay and surrounding, we are seeing very slow growth and notable low body mass in our shell stock, even in areas that normally produce our best stuff and fastest growers. I have seen some exceptions, notably in the narrows of the Taunton River and in the extreme low area of Raccoon Cove. The Taunton River has been sampled and consistently shows some of the highest plankton levels in the area. Clams in Raccoon Cove (and other places that are below mean low tide) get to feed for longer periods of time do to the fact the tide doesn’t uncover them much. In both of these instances, here at least, the meat count is down. Yes, it could be due this year’s conditions and likely is.
What the article discusses is a trend over time, over years. It is not a conclusion, but and tested and recorded observation.
Yes, more cloudy weather contributes. Rain contributes to increased run off. Fresh water contributes to less feeding time in areas adjacent to freshwater inlets. Predictions have held true, thus far, regarding increased rainfall in the Eastern US. If this is a continuing trend, the article’s indications are likely approaching the true conditions in the gulf.
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Marie scientist are not just like diggers. For one they are not spending the duration of every tide on the flay day in and day out. They are there sporadically. They also do not depend upon the success of stock growth for their means of survival like a digger. Instead they depend on government funding. As such they will bend their narrative in order to keep getting paid. As far as records go taxation by default warrants I document landings for every tide. With the exception of October and November I dig doubles in perpetuity. What better record set could exist than that? Seems to me anyone very interested in drawing serious conclusions about flat health would be trying to obtain that info but nobody.is asking.
You are seeing what you perceive as slower growing clams bevause you are only seeing the smaller run. July-March the run size everywhere is predominantly a 2 1/2" and under run located in the high flat and up into the shoreline areas where growth isn't as good. April-July the larger run blows out painting a entirely different story. Walk around the Jordan river in the right spots today and you will find the meatiest and fastest growing clams in the state. For years Milbridge and other towns complained about how good the claiming was in Harrington and how lucky we were. Now Milbridge has some guys digging that know how to move around with tide calander, dig the outlet limits of large flats, don't spend all their time in spots that are 2 feet from the truck or so hard you can walk around in knee highs. Now they realize its just as good there as anywhere else. It's just a matter of someone who knows what their doing landing on them. That's why two people in the same town can have completely different success rates.
Clams being at their smallest body mass after spawning isn't a revelation. Of course they are they just blew a pile of spat out of themselves. That spawning has nothing to do with their feeding habits up until that point as you suggested.
You also suggest clams are feeding constantly in response to my statement that clams would be feeding more if they aren't finding enough feed. Clams dont even come close to feeding continually. If they did every time you walked onto a mud flat EVERY clam on that flat would be blown out and you'd be blown away by just how much volume is there. You'd also be seeing the larger run you think your area is lacking. You aren't seeing them though because they feed infrequently compared to a smaller guy and when they aren't feeding you have no way of knowing they are there to survey. They go so deep you cant turn them over. As I mentioned before a sand worm hoe won't even touch them. Nows the time to survey them if your town wants to do it. You have a short window when they are exposing themselves and then you can kiss them goodbye for a year. I'd suggest mirroring the system we use here. We even go get good weight in the dead of winter when they are supposedly dormant and we have about 5 times as many diggers in a smaller area. So obviously the 6 months in one half and 6 months in the other system is still.working 40 years later. I'd be happy to help in any way and get you a copy of our ordinance.
You failed to address Maine Shells yield data versus my point. I'm wondering how you'll refute my obvious logic on that one and again why give them away to them for the *expletive* price they are paying. You're just as close to Trenton Bridge and RDR as you are Maine Shell and I know you dig a nice run. Granted it sucks waiting in line but its like adding half a tide to a check. They only way to drive them up with the competition is taking away what few they are still getting. Two of their shops down here just got in a mess last week. Some of the stuff in the cooler was OVER 50% small. The best they found was 12%. They are trucking loads of garbage out of here to keep going along with the gallons they get from Sandy Cove Shellfish. They are just cutting everyone's throat including their own by buying that stuff before it's had a chance to grow.
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it looks like using the ocean as a toilet for the last 500 years is starting to catch up to us.
It said color was from leaves and other forms of carbon.
There was more fish and clams when the sewers went right into the ocean
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It said color was from leaves and other forms of carbon.
There was more fish and clams when the sewers went right into the ocean
Very true. As gross as it is, sewers actually can enrich water and enhance the fertility and phytoplankton production, which passes on to zooplankton and up the food chain.
I do wonder if this is indeed due to leaves for the most part, it's possible things may be reverting back to normal? I say this because at one time New England was almost denuded by the settlers and later overzealous tree harvesting, and from what I'm seeing the forests are coming back -- hence Moose and bears of unprecedented numbers in a state like Massachusetts. See northern Worcestor Count has somewhere near 1000 where most of the moose are in the state. And the bear numbers for the state are 4000 to 5000.
I've seen pictures about 100 years ago of Massachusetts landscapes and was flabbergasted by the amount of wide open land that does not exist now.
Of course Mass is not Maine but I used it to make my point.
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Lots to address here and we seem to be talking somewhat at cross purposes. apples and sea cucumbers..... I did not fail to address Maine Shell. Clams here are either stunting or growing more slowly due to low feed or competition w/mussels (I doubt) in some isolated areas. WE do have fast an slow grower in evidence . We do NOT have the year classes form 3- 4 years ago. We DO have the year classes form 1-2 years ago that are now in their third year. WE simply do not have the middle classes at this time. I will have to give you a better run down tomorrow. Unfortunately I have taken a “real” job this year (which I just got home from and have other matters to attend) as I have ZERO confidence in sustainable harvest in our areas, especially in that the resource will NOT avail winter security though, with the price expected this summer and early fall will be good. I’ll get back with ya later and look ago your PM in the tomorrow AM.
OH YEAH! I’m gonna get my CDL with Hazemat, but MAYBE I’ll just COLLECT this coming ice fishing season as I would get the MAXIMUM. THAT would give me plenty of fishing time! ;D :thumbup_smilie:
Marie scientist are not just like diggers. For one they are not spending the duration of every tide on the flay day in and day out. They are there sporadically. They also do not depend upon the success of stock growth for their means of survival like a digger. Instead they depend on government funding. As such they will bend their narrative in order to keep getting paid. As far as records go taxation by default warrants I document landings for every tide. With the exception of October and November I dig doubles in perpetuity. What better record set could exist than that? Seems to me anyone very interested in drawing serious conclusions about flat health would be trying to obtain that info but nobody.is asking.
You are seeing what you perceive as slower growing clams bevause you are only seeing the smaller run. July-March the run size everywhere is predominantly a 2 1/2" and under run located in the high flat and up into the shoreline areas where growth isn't as good. April-July the larger run blows out painting a entirely different story. Walk around the Jordan river in the right spots today and you will find the meatiest and fastest growing clams in the state. For years Milbridge and other towns complained about how good the claiming was in Harrington and how lucky we were. Now Milbridge has some guys digging that know how to move around with tide calander, dig the outlet limits of large flats, don't spend all their time in spots that are 2 feet from the truck or so hard you can walk around in knee highs. Now they realize its just as good there as anywhere else. It's just a matter of someone who knows what their doing landing on them. That's why two people in the same town can have completely different success rates.
Clams being at their smallest body mass after spawning isn't a revelation. Of course they are they just blew a pile of spat out of themselves. That spawning has nothing to do with their feeding habits up until that point as you suggested.
You also suggest clams are feeding constantly in response to my statement that clams would be feeding more if they aren't finding enough feed. Clams dont even come close to feeding continually. If they did every time you walked onto a mud flat EVERY clam on that flat would be blown out and you'd be blown away by just how much volume is there. You'd also be seeing the larger run you think your area is lacking. You aren't seeing them though because they feed infrequently compared to a smaller guy and when they aren't feeding you have no way of knowing they are there to survey. They go so deep you cant turn them over. As I mentioned before a sand worm hoe won't even touch them. Nows the time to survey them if your town wants to do it. You have a short window when they are exposing themselves and then you can kiss them goodbye for a year. I'd suggest mirroring the system we use here. We even go get good weight in the dead of winter when they are supposedly dormant and we have about 5 times as many diggers in a smaller area. So obviously the 6 months in one half and 6 months in the other system is still.working 40 years later. I'd be happy to help in any way and get you a copy of our ordinance.
You failed to address Maine Shells yield data versus my point. I'm wondering how you'll refute my obvious logic on that one and again why give them away to them for the *expletive* price they are paying. You're just as close to Trenton Bridge and RDR as you are Maine Shell and I know you dig a nice run. Granted it sucks waiting in line but its like adding half a tide to a check. They only way to drive them up with the competition is taking away what few they are still getting. Two of their shops down here just got in a mess last week. Some of the stuff in the cooler was OVER 50% small. The best they found was 12%. They are trucking loads of garbage out of here to keep going along with the gallons they get from Sandy Cove Shellfish. They are just cutting everyone's throat including their own by buying that stuff before it's had a chance to grow.
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The cutting of the woods years ago was on a much slower schedule .Axes and horses!! Now the woods a being cut at a much faster rate and pollution is running into the ocean at a much faster rate. More roads, more machinery, more mud, More dust, faster and faster .
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The cutting of the woods years ago was on a much slower schedule .Axes and horses!! Now the woods a being cut at a much faster rate and pollution is running into the ocean at a much faster rate. More roads, more machinery, more mud, More dust, faster and faster .
Are you sure it was that slow? I've seen old pictures where hundreds of men went through a forest and it looks like a giant woodchipper had gone through. Not a sapling was left standing.
I was under the impression that harvesting trees albeit efficient and faster is a lot smarter these days. More science involved and replanting is done by forest product companies. Am I wrong?
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Are you sure it was that slow? I've seen old pictures where hundreds of men went through a forest and it looks like a giant woodchipper had gone through. Not sapling was left standing.
I was under the impression that harvesting trees albeit efficient and faster is a lot smarter these days. More science involved and replanting is done by forest product companies. Am I wrong?
You're correct. There's far more timber around now that there once was. Not to mention all the farm land that phased back into forest. There used to be a huge portion of land on the coast that was fields. A large portion of them have been let go and have overgrown
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You guys think axes ,Horses are faster than Fellar bunches and ,skidders,chainsaws,Bulldozers.
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You guys think axes ,Horses are faster than Fellar bunches and ,skidders,chainsaws,Bulldozers.
No but it's more controlled these days.
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Guess you don't understand money, And you haven't been to northern Maine, and seen the mess left from heavy machinery . Loggers don't go between trees they don't want .they drive over them and crush it all . Mud ,dust, phosphorus .Everywhere!!!!!!!!!!
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It has nothing to do with the equipment being used. There simply isn't the market for the wood now. I work in the north maine woods all fall so I know the area. There's way more woods now that at anytime in the past. When they cut with axes and buck saws they just used A LOT more of them. Back then everyone cut. In the winter people used to cut 4 foot pulp wood when they still bought it. Everyone use to burn wood so you had that much more being cut for home heating. Farm.land.was being created everywhere. Places were clear cut to produce fields. At one time Bangor was the lumber capital of the world and the wood hitting the ground now dwells in comparison to what hit the ground back then. The country was being built and the thirst for lumber was unquenchable. Practically every mill in the state is shut down now . I forgot to mention the 80s when budworm hit and millions of acres got clear-cut. Ask a state forester that's been around awhile what the forest looks like now compared to 50 years ago even. Route 9 and stud mill was barren.
If you think modern practices are hard on the environment what do you imagine building dams every mile and driving millions of board feet down the river system did? They literally dragged the logs into the water back then. Now they have to at least stay somewhat away from it. The new equipment takes the slash from the trees and lays it down to drive on. If it gets too soft they have to stop cutting. Theres more to it then you let on.
Pick up a history book and you'll be surprised how things were far different back then than you apparently realize. At one time rivers running through city's were so dirty the surfaces periodically caught on fire. Think about that,
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Had Prentise & Carlisle selectively cut my land a few years a go. I asked the forester how they cleared land in the early day for farming and or what ever......How did they get out the stumps...His response was that the trees were all 24” or larger diameter, the stumps were much fewer an further between. Underbrush and thick small trees were not prevalent. Our forests aren’t like that anymore.
Certainly the dams and mass cutting that happened with the arrival of mechanized cutting and then the building of many dams took a higher toll. After the end of old grow forests and the near extinction of Atlantic Salmon, compared to the arrival of the colonists, regulation began. The clean air and water acts saved our azzez to a degree.
Now the detrimental trends are way less visible and more insidious than burning rivers, lakes that didn’t freeze except for off color slush and raw sewage floating by and so are less visible to those that might have been concerned. Out of sight out of mind.
So, when you get studies like the one I put up at the beginning of this thread or climate studies it is easy to dismiss them, Out of sight out of mind. It’s just an “opinion" til it effects your income or family where you can see, feel it and live in it immediately and then.... who cares about the guys in some other state and the hell with the other countries and foreigners.
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Much more forest in the USA today than in the past...
"Maine has been harvested for timber for well over two centuries, yet the state has more forest today than 100 years ago. During the 1700s and 1800s much of southern and central Maine was cleared for farms. But since agriculture began declining in the 1800s much of that land has grown back to woods. Evidence of that is all over in the rock walls snaking through stands of mature trees."
from http://www.forestsformainesfuture.org/forest-facts/
USA actually has met Kyoto Protocol emissions without Bush ever signing or embracing those goals..
see trendline here http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=10691
All the supposedly "concerned" other countries of the planet - stick it up our's everyday..
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having taken a few Maine history classes, there are definately more trees now than back in the hayday of foresting and using wood for heating fuel. The increase in runoff could be more closely associated with substantially more asphalt and roadways, but im thinking if there is an increase in leaf litter finding its way into the waterways, could be due to more trees being around instead of less.
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Leaf litter due to over forestation will cause natural acidic conditions no blaming MMGW here.
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Leaves are a normal part of our yearly action ,Its when they add all the crushed wood and mud it more than over whelming to the environment .But a few care more about making Money than protecting our water shed, Its pretty sad to see everything go down hill...
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If you're referring to me I make my living from the water. So nobody cares about it more than I do. I'm just stating the facts. There's more timber now than ever. There's also FAR more regulation than ever. We also NEED logging for civilization. There's a lot of things in this life and world I think could be done better but at least things are moving forward and getting better. Drilling for oil can be detrimental to the environment but for the time being it's something we can't live without. Just because someone is right and you are wrong about there being more standing timber now than in the past is no reason to start saying they don't care about the environment. That's just juvenile and foolish. Just like saying someone doesn't understand money and business because they disagreed with your incorrect statement. I understand it isn't profitable for business to harvest timber they cannot sell even if they have mechanized equipment that didn't exist in 1900. If there was a massive demand for wood and paper the new logging equipment could easily cut more timber than in the past. Instead Maine logging is a dying industry. Mills are cheaper to run elsewhere and forest grow quicker in other climates. It's sad honestly. At least for us realist who understand people have to have jobs.
Contrary to your belief the people cutting the wood are also concerned for the environment in most cases. In a lot of instances they own the land and want to keep it in as good a shape as possible. The practices and environment surrounding logging today are vastly improved. They certainly are not perfect but nothing is when man is involved. Would you have all logging cease? Apparently so. I assume you live in a structure comprised mainly of wood materials or do you live in a house made of brick? Stop and think about how we need the logging industry. Trees do grow back. It's a renewable resource. Paper, lumber, pencils, bed frames, sign post, we could go on for days. There's wood in alot of fishing tackle. It creates feed and habitat for moose and other wildlife. Left to its own devices a forest uncut will eventually become a nightmare of blow down dead trees and Jack firs so thick a tick can't crawl through them.
From your past post belittling everyone involved in logging and every thing logging does I'm guessing they upset you somehow and you have a "woodchip" on your shoulder with them? Perhaps you have a camp on land a logging company is nice enough to lease to you and they cut closer than you liked to the camp and you're butt hurt over it? Something must be driving the illogical idea that all logging is evil and worse than other industry.
You have mentioned a few times about the logging activity on the golden road and that area. Do you realize the logging companies own that road and the only reason you are allowed up there is by their good grace? They can gate all those roads behind them anytime they choose. If they don't want you up there they CAN stop you anytime. Personally if you have such an issue with them I don't understand why you want to use their roads or land. That evil logging is paying for the roads you're driving on up there. If they are so bad why not stay out of the Northwood altogether?
Some idiots went on blueberry land owned by Wymans and cherryfield foods and started complaining and moaning about every little thing the companies did with THEIR own land and roads. Guess what happened? Every road and piece of land they own now has 3 foot by 3 foot no trespassing signs and who can really blame them? They were nice ebough to let the public use their land with no fees or oversight and a few people ruined it for everyone. People have to eat and farming like logging isn't always pretty or perfect but both are NECESSARY. Both farming and logging also provides desperately needed jobs in this state. If we shut all logging down are you going to employ all the people out of work? If you don't like the way they do things on their millions of acres in northern Maine just stay out of there. It's not public land. Would you enjoy it if random people started walking around your driveway and yard and complaining about things you do? Probably not. They are regulated by the state and as long as they aren't breaking laws how can they be faulted? That's why we pay foresters rangers to make sure the areas are being properly maintained and cared for. Some of the best fishing in the state is adjacent the most heavily forested areas. You would have us believe every lake in the Northwoods is devoid of life. You should be thanking them for letting you pass through the gate in Millinocket or wherever you go in because they DON'T have to. You should also thank them everytime you wipe you a** and don't have to use just your finger to do it. If you're dead set against them just stay off their land before it's posted and ruined for us all.
When you get a chance enlighten me on your plan to proceed in a world without any logging?????
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Many people do not know that native aboriginal populations engaged in large scale terra-engineering. They burned the understory in the northeast and they cleared and burned areas creating savanna in the southeast. Large scale terra farming continued in the plains and even the west. Humans and all life have been intricately linked to the earth system and climate and habitat since forever.
Here is just a little review of what went on in the northeast. Early accounts of europeans show that the whole landscape was modified by burning the understory. Smoke could be seen hundreds of miles out to sea. The native peoples did this and improved agriculture and made habitat for animals to prosper.
http://www.daviesand.com/Papers/Tree_Crops/Indian_Agroforestry/
In the south huge areas were burned and manipulated by native americans.
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fsbdev3_000385.pdf
http://srs.fs.fed.us/sustain/report/fire/fire-06.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_savannas_of_North_America
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BTW the original article suggested increased annual precip in Maine over the last 100 years as the cause of the color change. That figure btw is 15 cm since 1895 or a 10% increase based on a yearly trendline.
There is significant noise in the annual data because the met stations do not have universal statewide coverage and yearly averages vary considerably and can be influenced by major storms and what their storm tracks are and also El Nino effects. Also since most stations are near urban areas i.e. airports there is significant bias in the data with time and increasing population and development. Most if not all of the increase is seen in southern and coastal Maine during the summer and fall and is linked to high (greater than 2 inches of precip in 24 hours) rainfall events like microbursts. Where the development happens is where the stations lie
So the question becomes is a 10 per cent increase in precip significant when in fact the yearly averages fluctuate on a greater scale? And if most of the increase is not over a greater areal extent but limited to southern coastal Maine? If you look at monthly precip averages inland like in Bangor or Millinocket or Presque Isle, the monthly precip is about the same for every month.
If you look at the meaned average precip from 1895 to 1980 and the same from 1981 to 2015 there is only a slight increase statewide (less than 1 percent) over the whole time period so that would imply to me that precip increases are even less significant than is claimed.
Statistics can be manipulated quite easily to alter the perception of what one is trying to sell. I don't doubt there is a color change based on todays measurement when compared to those of Bigelow in 1910 but I am not convinced of it's cause...as was suggested Bigelow did not have the same coverage and amount of data that can be obtained today. I also don't doubt there is some discernible measurable increase in precip if one wants to massage the data enough to get the desired result.
Correlation is not causation.
I am skeptical.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess.
Ronald Coase, Economist
Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.
Albert Einstein, Physicist
He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp posts – for support rather than for illumination.
Andrew Lang, Scottish Writer
I never guess. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Author of Sherlock Holmes stories
Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.
Aaron Levenstein, Business Professor at Baruch College
A person who is gifted sees the essential point and leaves the rest as surplus.
Thomas Carlyle, Scottish Writer
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The logging company's did start to burn large brush piles after the cut was over, Not sure why they stopped it. Most likely the money was the reason. Foresters for northern companies don't seem to last long .
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Cap you forgot my favorite quote relating to statistics:
"They're are three kinds of lies: lies, d**n lies, and statistics."
-Samuel Clemens/Mark Twain
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there is definitely a lot less trees in northern arostook county! never seen devastation like the last 6-7 years up here. its no longer northern maine woods . its northern maine clearcut! if theres any cold water species spawing habitat that survives this i will be surprised! check it out on google earth!
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I can't speak for all of Northern Maine, but I have traveled a lot of the roads up there around camp and the clear cutting that has been done over the last 5 years or so is massive.
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Steve and Huemorin are correct.
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X2 The Canadians clear cut everything on the north side of the St Lawrence about 20years ago and the only trees left were in Maine all their interest is to cut and leave . the mess is everywhere in Northern Maine