Gulf of Maine Changing Color BDN

[woodchip1]

The cutting of the woods years ago was on a much slower schedule .Axes and horses!! Now the woods a being cut at a much faster rate and  pollution is running into the ocean at a much faster rate.  More roads, more machinery,  more mud, More dust,  faster  and faster .

[taxid]

The cutting of the woods years ago was on a much slower schedule .Axes and horses!! Now the woods a being cut at a much faster rate and  pollution is running into the ocean at a much faster rate.  More roads, more machinery,  more mud, More dust,  faster  and faster .

Are you sure it was that slow? I've seen old pictures where hundreds of men went through a forest and it looks like a giant woodchipper had gone through. Not a sapling was left standing.

I was under the impression that harvesting trees albeit efficient and faster is a lot smarter these days. More science involved and replanting is done by forest product companies. Am I wrong?

[TunkTroller]

Are you sure it was that slow? I've seen old pictures where hundreds of men went through a forest and it looks like a giant woodchipper had gone through. Not sapling was left standing.

I was under the impression that harvesting trees albeit efficient and faster is a lot smarter these days. More science involved and replanting is done by forest product companies. Am I wrong?

You're correct. There's far more timber around now that there once was. Not to mention all the farm land that phased back into forest. There used to be a huge portion of land on the coast that was fields. A large portion of them have been let go and have overgrown

[woodchip1]

You guys think axes ,Horses are faster than Fellar bunches and ,skidders,chainsaws,Bulldozers.

[taxid]

You guys think axes ,Horses are faster than Fellar bunches and ,skidders,chainsaws,Bulldozers.

No but it's more controlled these days.

[woodchip1]

Guess you don't understand money, And you haven't been to northern Maine, and seen the mess left from heavy machinery . Loggers don't go between trees they don't want .they drive over them and crush it all . Mud ,dust, phosphorus .Everywhere!!!!!!!!!!

[TunkTroller]

It has nothing to do with the equipment being used. There simply isn't the market for the wood now. I work in the north maine woods all fall so I know the area. There's way more woods now that at anytime in the past. When they cut with axes and buck saws they just used A LOT more of them. Back then everyone cut. In the winter people used to cut 4 foot pulp wood when they still bought it. Everyone use to burn wood so you had that much more being cut for home heating. Farm.land.was being created everywhere. Places were clear cut to produce fields. At one time Bangor was the lumber capital of the world and the wood hitting the ground now dwells in comparison to what hit the ground back then. The country was being built and the thirst for lumber was unquenchable. Practically every mill in the state is shut down now . I forgot to mention the 80s when budworm hit and millions of acres got clear-cut. Ask a state forester that's been around awhile what the forest looks like now compared to 50 years ago even. Route 9 and stud mill was barren.

If you think modern practices are hard on the environment what do you imagine building dams every mile and driving millions of board feet down the river system did? They literally dragged the logs into the water back then. Now they have to at least stay somewhat away from it. The new equipment takes the slash from the trees and lays it down to drive on. If it gets too soft they have to stop cutting. Theres more to it then you let on.

Pick up a history book and you'll be surprised how things were far different back then than you apparently realize. At one time rivers running through city's were so dirty the surfaces periodically caught on fire. Think about that,

[CLAMFARMER]

Had Prentise & Carlisle selectively cut my land a few years a go. I asked the forester how they cleared land in the early day for  farming  and or what ever......How did they get out the stumps...His response was that the trees were all 24” or larger diameter, the stumps were much fewer an further between. Underbrush and thick small trees were not prevalent. Our forests aren’t like that anymore.

Certainly the dams and mass cutting that happened with the arrival of mechanized cutting and then the building of many dams took a higher toll. After the end of old grow forests and the near extinction of Atlantic Salmon, compared to the arrival of the colonists, regulation began. The clean air and water acts saved our azzez to a degree.

Now the detrimental trends are way less visible and more insidious than burning rivers, lakes that didn’t freeze except for off color slush and raw sewage floating by and so are less visible to those that might have been concerned. Out of sight out of mind.

So, when you get studies like the one I put up at the beginning of this thread or climate studies it is easy to dismiss them, Out of sight out of mind. It’s just an “opinion" til it effects your income or family where you can see, feel it and live in it immediately and then.... who cares about the guys in some other state and the hell with the other countries and foreigners.

[cap]

Much more forest in the USA today than in the past...

"Maine has been harvested for timber for well over two centuries, yet the state has more forest today than 100 years ago. During the 1700s and 1800s much of southern and central Maine was cleared for farms. But since agriculture began declining in the 1800s much of that land has grown back to woods. Evidence of that is all over in the rock walls snaking through stands of mature trees."

from   http://www.forestsformainesfuture.org/forest-facts/

USA actually has met Kyoto Protocol emissions without Bush ever signing or embracing those goals..

see trendline here       http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=10691

All the supposedly "concerned" other countries of the planet - stick it up our's everyday..

[thedirtydirtyfisherman]

having taken a few Maine history classes, there are definately more trees now than back in the hayday of foresting and using wood for heating fuel.  The increase in runoff could be more closely associated with substantially more asphalt and roadways, but im thinking if there is an increase in leaf litter finding its way into the waterways, could be due to more trees being around instead of less.

[PK186]

Leaf litter due to over forestation will cause natural acidic conditions no blaming MMGW here.

[woodchip1]

Leaves are a normal part of our yearly action ,Its when they add all the crushed wood and mud it more than over whelming to the environment .But a few care more about making Money than protecting our water shed, Its pretty sad to see everything go down hill...

[TunkTroller]

If you're referring to me I make my living from the water. So nobody cares about it more than I do. I'm just stating the facts.  There's more timber now than ever. There's also FAR more regulation than ever. We also NEED logging for civilization. There's a lot of things in this life and world I think could be done better but at least things are moving forward and getting better. Drilling for oil can be detrimental to the environment but for the time being it's something we can't live without. Just because someone is right and you are wrong about there being more standing timber now than in the past is no reason to start saying they don't care about the environment. That's just juvenile and foolish. Just like saying someone doesn't understand money and business because they disagreed with your incorrect statement.  I understand it isn't profitable for business to harvest timber they cannot sell even if they have mechanized equipment that didn't exist in 1900. If there was a massive demand for wood and paper the new logging equipment could easily cut more timber than in the past. Instead Maine logging is a dying industry. Mills are cheaper to run elsewhere and forest grow quicker in other climates. It's sad honestly.  At least for us realist who understand people have to have jobs.

 Contrary to your belief the people cutting the wood are also concerned for the environment in most cases. In a lot of instances they own the land and want to keep it in as good a shape as possible. The practices and environment surrounding logging today are vastly improved. They certainly are not perfect but nothing is when man is involved. Would you have all logging cease? Apparently  so. I assume you live in a structure comprised mainly of wood materials or do you live in a house made of brick? Stop and think about how we need the logging industry. Trees do grow back. It's a renewable resource. Paper, lumber,  pencils, bed frames, sign post, we could go on for days. There's wood in alot of fishing tackle. It creates feed and habitat for moose and other wildlife. Left to its own devices a forest uncut will eventually become a nightmare of blow down dead trees and Jack firs so thick a tick can't crawl through them.

From your past post belittling everyone involved in logging and every thing logging does I'm guessing they upset you somehow and you have a "woodchip" on your shoulder with them? Perhaps you have a camp on land a logging company is nice enough to lease to you and they cut closer than you liked to the camp and you're butt hurt over it? Something must be driving the illogical idea that all logging is evil and worse than other industry.

You have mentioned a few times about the logging activity on the golden road and that area. Do you realize the logging companies own that road and the only reason you are allowed up there is by their good grace? They can gate all those roads behind them anytime they choose. If they don't want you up there they CAN stop you anytime. Personally if you have such an issue with them I don't understand why you want to use their roads or land. That evil logging is paying for the roads you're driving on up there. If they are so bad why not stay out of the Northwood altogether?

Some idiots went on blueberry land owned by Wymans and cherryfield foods and started complaining and moaning about every little thing the companies did with THEIR own land and roads. Guess what happened? Every road and piece of land they own now has 3 foot by 3 foot no trespassing signs and who can really blame them? They were nice ebough to let the public use their land with no fees or oversight and a few people ruined it for everyone. People have to eat and farming like logging isn't always pretty or perfect but both are NECESSARY. Both farming and logging also provides desperately needed jobs in this state. If we shut all logging down are you going to employ all the people out of work? If you don't like the way they do things on their millions of acres in northern Maine just stay out of there. It's not public land. Would you enjoy it if random people started walking around your driveway and yard and complaining about things you do? Probably not. They are regulated by the state and as long as they aren't breaking laws how can they be faulted? That's why we pay foresters rangers to make sure the areas are being properly maintained and cared for. Some of the best fishing in the state is adjacent the most heavily forested areas. You would have us believe every lake in the Northwoods is devoid of life. You should be thanking them for letting you pass through the gate in Millinocket or wherever you go in because they DON'T have to. You should also thank them everytime you wipe you a** and don't have to use just your finger to do it. If you're dead set against them just stay off their land before it's posted and ruined for us all.

When you get a chance enlighten me on your plan to proceed in a world without any logging??

[cap]

Many people do not know that native aboriginal populations engaged in large scale terra-engineering. They burned the understory in the northeast and they cleared and burned areas creating savanna in the southeast.  Large scale terra farming continued in the plains and even the west. Humans and all life have been intricately linked to the earth system and climate and habitat since forever.

Here is just a little review of what went on in the northeast.  Early accounts of europeans show that the whole landscape was modified by burning the understory. Smoke could be seen hundreds of miles out to sea.  The native peoples did this and improved agriculture and made habitat for animals to prosper.

http://www.daviesand.com/Papers/Tree_Crops/Indian_Agroforestry/

In the south huge areas were burned and manipulated by native americans.

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fsbdev3_000385.pdf

http://srs.fs.fed.us/sustain/report/fire/fire-06.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_savannas_of_North_America

[cap]

BTW the original article suggested increased annual precip in Maine over the last 100 years as the cause of the color change. That figure btw is 15 cm since 1895 or a 10% increase based on a yearly trendline.

There is significant noise in the annual data because the met stations do not have universal statewide coverage and yearly averages vary considerably and can be influenced by major storms and what their storm tracks are and also El Nino effects. Also since most stations are near urban areas i.e. airports there is significant bias in the data with time and increasing population and development. Most if not all of the increase is seen in southern and coastal Maine during the summer and fall and is linked to high (greater than 2 inches of precip in 24 hours) rainfall events like microbursts. Where the development happens is where the stations lie

So the question becomes is a 10 per cent increase in precip significant when in fact the yearly averages fluctuate on a greater scale? And if most of the increase is not over a greater areal extent but limited to southern coastal Maine?  If you look at monthly precip averages inland like in Bangor or Millinocket or Presque Isle, the monthly precip is about the same for every month.  

If you look at the meaned average precip from 1895 to 1980 and the same from 1981 to 2015 there is only a slight increase statewide (less than 1 percent) over the whole time period so that would imply to me that precip increases are even less significant than is claimed.

Statistics can be manipulated quite easily to alter the perception of what one is trying to sell.   I don't doubt there is a color change based on todays measurement when compared to those of Bigelow in 1910 but I am not convinced of it's cause...as was suggested Bigelow did not have the same coverage and amount of data that can be obtained today. I also don't doubt there is some discernible measurable increase in precip if one wants to massage the data enough to get the desired result.

Correlation is not causation.

I am skeptical.

If you torture the data long enough, it will confess.
Ronald Coase, Economist

Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.
Albert Einstein, Physicist

He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp posts – for support rather than for illumination.
Andrew Lang, Scottish Writer

I never guess. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Author of Sherlock Holmes stories

Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.
Aaron Levenstein, Business Professor at Baruch College

A person who is gifted sees the essential point and leaves the rest as surplus.
Thomas Carlyle, Scottish Writer