"Mud Cod" Closure for 2011??

[PDubs/NH]

Peeking around the local partyboat reports I saw some commentary from the Eastman's captain that there is a "push" to close the "mud" spawning grounds - and that he and the Al Gauron captain both support it - and that its a "travesty taking all those spawning cod" and has been "three and a half weeks of massacres."


So - first off, anyone interested on either side of the issue - keep your ears and eyes open to see if this is rumor or develops into something.  

Second - I respect anyone's opinion on either side of the issue that will stand by it...


but, what I find, well, incredibly hyprocritical is for Eastman's   to call the fishing lately a "travesty" and a "massacre" and for both captains to support closures...WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN FULLY PARTICIPATING!!!   It seems that they will do what they feel is "right" over what brings in the $$ only when they are forced to by law. Said another way...if no ban occurs... will we see these two operations out there again in 2011 adding to the 'slaughter and travesty??'

Comments?

[Need to fish]

Eastmans is in a bind. If they don't go out, then people will go out on another charter. Eastmans will have accomplished nothing in saving the fishery and they end up losing money to make a statement. They will also lose their workers as they will find work elsewhere.

If there is a ban, then everyone will be in the same situation of short term lost business but then it will help the fish stocks rebuild.

[CJiceaddict]

Eastmans is in a bind. If they don't go out, then people will go out on another charter. Eastmans will have accomplished nothing in saving the fishery and they end up losing money to make a statement. They will also lose their workers as they will find work elsewhere.

If there is a ban, then everyone will be in the same situation of short term lost business but then it will help the fish stocks rebuild.

Well said. Les has been saying for awhile that being allowed to catch the spawning cod is crap. Thats just it though, as long as it is legal, thats what the paying customers want and thats what they have to do. I admit, I went out once this year for the mud cod and had never done it before. It was a ton of fun catching big cod like that on a regular basis. This being said, I fully support closing the spawning grounds and letting these female fish survive. I also noticed the mud cod had quite a few more worms than the markets caught out of jeffries. My .02

CJ

[salmon stalker]

Funny, I was just talking about this with some folks the other day.

All the charters hit the mud but still fish it. They can fish Jeffries, stellwagon, cashes etc. They have plenty of other places to go if they felt that strongly against it. They don't have to fish the mud when we have an entire ocean. You can get whale cod in numerous other places and in big numbers but just have to ride out further. They are just as bad as commercial guys, they limit out with 60 people on board at 600 cod. Think of that.....600 cod a day, 1 boat from 1 company. With the amount of charter companies and boats they have they destroy those grounds just as bad as commercial guys. Atleast the commercial guys have a qouta, the Charters guys can fish it every day as long as cod are there with no qouta.

They would not lose business, people or money if they fish where they fish the entire season when cod are not in the mud. They have tons of places to go......they are hypocritical big time.

On another side of the coin, I had an interesting conversation with Kevin Sullivan at NH F&G. He runs the seascoast Marine Biology side. He is a very nice guy, I suggest a call if anyone wants more info as to why they allow the mud grounds to be fished commercially and or are open to everyone.

Basically he said that the mud grounds aka whale back aka long ledge and some call Mud hole is because they consider it a 2nd spawn there for it does not effect breeding. They think the cod actually breed offshore in March-April and they come inshore for almost a 2nd round if you will. Most cod are not even loaded with eggs (I know a lot still are though). Also this year why they allowed commercial season to open was because the affect was already in place and the rolling closures did not have to be followed because objectives where already met. So the commercial guys who had that sector where able to fish it come June 1st even though closure was in effect till July 1st because their objectives where completed.

Lastly he said the taking of whale cod is not a bad thing, he said the people that say we should throw back the breeders is incorrect. He said those cod are very old, they have spawned numerous times over the years to pass their genes on. He said it's the market size and steaker's we keep that effect the breeding because they have years left of life and can spawn 10x over. The big ones would be dying within the next year so he said keep the big ones, throw the little ones back.

Interesting to hear it from his perspective as well

[PDubs/NH]

Well said. Les has been saying for awhile that being allowed to catch the spawning cod is crap. Thats just it though, as long as it is legal, thats what the paying customers want and thats what they have to do. CJ

Herein lies what I think is hypocritical. They DON'T have to do it.... If Les feels it is crap, is wrong, is a travesty...then he/Eastman's can choose to not be part - and yes, perhaps take a financial hit.  Isnt that what a "principle" is all about...something to be stood by despite and/or when it becomes difficult (in this case financially)?

In terms of "they do nothing to save the fishery  (Need to Fish)" if they choose not to fish it - again, I dont agree.  There are X number of party boats fishing that area... If Les/Eastman's chose not to fish there, its not like another party boat would magically pop up to fill that void - its not like there is a set quota of party boats (or recreational boats for that matter) and others are waiting to hit it but need someone to back out.   No one would be more apt to fish there if Eastman's didnt (in fact - its JUST THE OPPOSITE.) Whatever they caught in the past three weeks - 1000 breeders, 3000 breeders  would still be swimming if Eastman's didnt fish.  

Like I said - I do not have enough data to decide if its a detriment to the fishery or not, and the F&G info seems to support that it is not.  I just think its pretty sleazy to claim that you do believe its wrong, but heck - you'll keep doing it as long as others get to...

[NMSBob]

One smelly old codfishermans opinion.
Even in the bad old days when it was wide open with draggers hitting those fish coming inside to breed every night they couldn't completely kill off this run. What we are seeing now in my opinion is the results of the rolling closures allowing these fish to come back in increasing numbers every year and sucessfully doing their business inspite of the rec onslaught every spring. Now hundreds of private boats and all the charter- party boats are climbing all over themselves(literally-see challenger-tracy anne collision) to get pictures of large dead cod to promote their business and  put on their fridges and the sector boats have been allowed in a month earlier then normal fishing no limits till their sector quota is filled. At some point it would seem we are shooting ourselves in the foot.
  As for the large breeders being ready to die in a year or two , well thats up for debate, some would argue with the max recorded size of atlantic cod being somewhere in the two hundred lb range these large 60 to 70 lb fish could well be in their prime and the most efficient  breeders. Could be the reason you see so few fish that size is that they have been mostly dragged up or caught in a gill net before that size is reached, not because they are dying off naturally.

I would like to see some rec restraint before the area is shut down to everyone, and I would like to see the rolling closure applied to the sector boats like the rest of the commercials.

My2cents

[Dana]

OK my turn on the soap box!
         I work for a large corporation, 800 employees. One thing we have learned is that if you start a good rumor, and management gets wind of it, management realizes that after enough time all the employees have thought of on their own, talked about it and weighted all the pros and cons. Then if management institutes the new "thing" the people generally accept it better because they knew it was coming. Management then gets something they didn't even think of on there own.

    This works in the fishing world also example: some moron liked the "cute name" wolffish. Wolfs are nearly extint so wolfish must be too because they became aware of them enough to come out and dream up the idea of saving them. They must be endangered!

Lesson here, rumors are circumstantial, downplay them!

[dustinfromnh]

I work at a baitshop on the seacoast, and hear an overwhelming number of people who want to push to get those grounds closed. also talked to a mass biologist who came into the shop to drop off this years saltwater publications who was telling me the states of MA and NH are pushing for a closure, but the feds aren't making it easy (the majority of whaleback is in federal waters, only a fraction is in ma/nh). this would be a GREAT idea... considering the millions of eggs a 50+lb fish carries.

also, different populations of fish have different spawning grounds/spawning times. ever think this population that spawns at whaleback may be its own distinct group of fish that spawn exclusively there? i've yet to catch a big cod (20+ lbs) at whaleback that hasn't been loaded with eggs/milt.... if you're catching fish there not loaded with spawn, it's simple.... they've already dropped their eggs. why else would they be there?

regardless of what people say about how commercial guys used to drag up tons of those spawners and them still being there, you think the tens of thousands of cod taken there yearly, which each have millions of eggs in them don't add to the population significantly? and why  do you think the limit on cod was just last year upped to 24 inches.... and we also have a gulf of maine closure on them between november and april? because the stocks are shot....

[PDubs/NH]

Here is my question, and again - I do not know enough to feel one way or another about closing the area:

Do you guys feel that this concentration of breeding fish in the Whaleback/Inner Flag area is a new thing - i.e. these fish are all of a sudden choosing this area to spawn when at other times they have spawned elsewhere that is harder to fish?

or

Do you feel that they have always used this area, but since the population as a whole has rebounded, the number of fish we are seeing spawning here has like-wise responded?

This distinction weighs a whole lot on my personal feelings about being able to fish the area.... and I have no clue which scenario is the case.

[NMSBob]

They have come in as long as I have been around, even during years of heavy commercial pressure, some years less , some years more.

I have always considered them a diferent group of fish from far away. They are some of the most handsome cod you will see, light backs and nice white bellies. They also have been caught MUCH closer to the beach at times.

There was talk of closing the area at the meeting this week by Dave Goethel according to a buddy that was there.

Bob

[hook-set]

i personally think the commercial boats do the most damage to the breeding population of cod in the whaleback area.letting them in a month early seems crazy to me but who am i ..lets be real this concentration of fish is there for only 1 reason to breed ....nothing more ...

[surflizard]

I still remember just a few years ago when 5 lb cod were winning pools, 5 pounders I'm not trying to be the fish hugger here, but these biomasses cannot be sustained with this kind of commercial harvest. Case in point, Striped Bass and Redfish were commercially destroyed 20 years ago. Over harvest and by catch were severely limited and these biomasses recovered. I do feel for the commercial guys, they have to make a living too. But if we keep hammering the breeders like this, It will go away for all of us ! I'm not trying to be the hypocrite here, I enjoy Codfishing as much as the next guy, but we need to regulate the commercial harvest before it's too late for all of us !
                                                              Just my opinion

[PDubs/NH]

I still remember just a few years ago when 5 lb cod were winning pools, 5 pounders I'm not trying to be the fish hugger here, but these biomasses cannot be sustained with this kind of commercial harvest... I enjoy Codfishing as much as the next guy, but we need to regulate the commercial harvest before it's too late for all of us !
                                                  

I am not sure what the closure to the mud grounds they are pushing for entails.... i.e. commercial vs. all fishing including party, charter & rec.

I was primarily focusing on non-commercials, but for sake or argument it seems that the commercial regulations in place for "the mud" worked pretty well this year. A few boats were allowed in June 1 and based on reports, fished for a few days and met their quota and left, and there were tons of fish around for 2 weeks after wards....

In terms of all recs - parties, charters, private boats....

From what Im reading and hearing - this "mud spawn" is not a new phenomenon.  That is, it is not a case where breeding fish are just starting to use this area when they have not in the past, and thus a new pressure is being put on the stocks that did not exist before. Im more and more leaning to a feeling that this is just a simple sign that the current regulations are working and will continue to work and shutting down this area to all fishing may be a knee-jerk reaction to what is actually a postive result of what is already being done.

Im a simple guy so I'll try and put it in simple terms.

Lets say that 5 or 10 years ago we saw very few breeder fish come into the mud in the spring... let's say "X". Fishing was poor and not many people concentrated there and only 1/3 of those fish were killed.  "2/3 X" were allowed to breed.  But, those 2/3X that were allowed to breed, along with all other current regulations have brought back the fishery so that in the past couple years 10X breeders come into the mud.  However - we all know the "slaughter" that takes place and say 80% (8X) of those fish are now killed.  OK.  But here is the thing (in my mind)... if that kind of scenario is the case (and Im not saying it definitely is, its a theory)  - there are still 2X fish left to breed - or 3 times as many as were able to provide the come back already, so shouldn't the growth continue - all other things being equal??

Yes, its a shot in the dark in terms of actual numbers, but hopefully someone can see the pattern.  Yes - many, many large cod are being killed in a short 3 week period. No doubt. but does that necessarily call for a closure. The real question to me is - "are enough large cod NOT killed to leave as many or more as it took to make the recovery already?"  If the anwer to that is yes, I see no need for a closure.  Cod, to me, are a resource. We should manage and conserve the resources, but not overly- preserve. Many have abudantly benefitted from the resource lately, but that is not necessarily a bad thing as long as the resource is in a postion to continue to sustain and grow.

 

[big lou]

usually what happens they target us rec. guys and let the comm. guys still have at it.mass started last year to close down the breeding hump for everone.but that won't work unless n.h. and me. follow suit. the breeders follow the whole bigaloew blight ledge line from cape ann up to me. the main breeding grounds in the spring out on georges bank has been closed down for 10 years now and it has made a big difference in the cod stocks.my op ion

[kbush08]

Rec guys always take the hit, right now commercial trollers are dragging that area clean, seems to me if they need anyone to stay away from those grounds it should be the commercial fisherman..