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Author Topic: Are you a boater? Better Beware!  (Read 7004 times)

doctariAFC

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Are you a boater? Better Beware!
« on: Jul 09, 2007, 08:21 PM »
Received this over the weekend from Dan Thomas.   READ AND HEED, and please take some time to write a comment letter!

Quote from: Great Lakes Sportfishing Council
Special Report July 06, 2007

GLSFC Special Bulletin
EPA to regulate discharge permits for commercial & recreational vessels
Federal Court revokes exclusion for discharges; implicates recreational vessels also


Federal Register Notice, Vol. 72, No. 119 / Thursday, June 21, 2007
Development of Clean Water Act National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System Permits for Discharges Incidental to the Normal Operation of Vessels

The USEPA is in the process of developing National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System (NPDES) permits under the Clean Water Act (CWA) for the discharge of pollutants (dumping dirty ballast water) incidental to the normal operation of vessels and is seeking comment and relevant information from the public on this matter.

Subsequent to the 1999 lawsuit filed by conservation and environmental groups over EPA excluding commercial shipping from the requirement of securing an NPDES permit to dump ballast water which was almost always contaminated with foreign pathogens or invasive critters, U.S. District Judge Susan Illston (Northern District of California) ruled against EPA and revoked the exclusion the agency had created for commercial shipping. Surprisingly, Illston, in her final ruling also included recreational boats as well. That’s you and me.

The Federal Register notice says: "The Federal Court in San Francisco (Judge Illston) issued a final order in September 2006 that revokes the regulatory exclusion for discharges incidental to the normal operation of vessels effective September 30, 2008. As of that date, those (ballast) discharges incidental to the normal operation of vessels previously excluded from NPDES permitting by the regulation will become prohibited unless the discharge is covered under an NPDES permit. The decision potentially implicates all vessels, both commercial and recreational, that have discharges incidental to their normal operation (e.g., deck runoff, graywater, etc). "

Accordingly, the Federal Register notice was issued to make the public aware of this matter and obtain their input, in the form of public comment or relevant information, to further help the Agency in the timely development of an NPDES permitting framework, which has not existed to date for discharges incidental to the normal operation of vessels.

DATES: Comments must be received on or before August 6, 2007.

Submit your comments: identified by Docket ID No. EPA–HQ– OW–2007–0483, by one of the following methods:

www.regulations.gov  - Follow the on-line instructions for submitting comments.

► E-mail: [email protected]   Attention Docket ID No. OW–2007–0483

► U.S. Mail: Water Docket Environmental Protection Agency, Mailcode: 2822T, 1200 Pennsylvania Ave., NW., Washington, DC 20460, Attention: Docket ID No. OW–2007–0483. Please include a total of two copies in addition to the original.

For additional information about EPA’s public docket visit the EPA Docket Center homepage at http://www.epa.gov/epahome/dockets.htm   

For Further information contact:
John Lishman, Water Permits Div, Office of Wastewater Mgmt: Phone 202-566–1364;e-mail: [email protected];  or Ruby Cooper, Water Permits Div: Phone 202-564–0757;  e-mail: [email protected].

The Federal Register notice does not contain or establish any regulatory requirements. Rather, it (1) provides the public with early notice of EPA’s intent to begin development of NPDES permits under section 402 of the CWA for discharges incidental to the normal operation of vessels; (2) explains the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California’s decision (Northwest Environmental Advocates et al. v. EPA, No. CV 03–05760 SI) that determined such discharges are subject to NPDES permit requirements and describes the status of that litigation; and (3) requests comment and technical input on matters associated with the development of such permits.

The USEPA is looking for assistance to determine which types of boats, and under what conditions, EPA should be required to regulate and be required to secure a NPDES discharge permit. EPA admittedly also doesn’t have the funding or wherewithal to develop such a program; that’s why they’re asking for our input. If we don’t give it, we are at risk of having a bunch of bureaucrats making some potentially nasty decisions that will impact our future, our recreation and our economy. Our input is critical here; our comments will tell the federal government and our courts we are not the culprits, we are not responsible and we are not the user group they should be looking to regulate.

We do not have or dump ballast, we do not transport water from one water body to another; we do not dump "grey water" and we do not discharge water "incidental to the operation of our vessels." 

Specifically, the USEPA wants "public input on the following matters:"
(1) What existing public and private data sources are available for use in identifying, categorizing, and describing the numbers and various types of commercial and recreational vessels currently operating in waters of the U.S. and that may have discharges incidental to their normal operation?

(2) What is the best way to inform vessel owners of the need to obtain NPDES permit coverage and what existing public and private data sources are available that will assist in identifying vessel owners and operators?

(3) What existing public and private data sources are available that identify the types of normal operations onboard commercial and recreational vessels that give rise to discharges and the characteristics of such discharges?

(4) What existing information is available as to potential environmental impacts of discharges incidental to the normal operation of vessels?

(5) What international, federal, and state limitations or controls already exist on discharges incidental to the normal operation of vessels?

(6) What existing information is available on the types of pollution control equipment or best management practices currently used (or in active development), and what, if any, are the practical limitations on their use?

(7) What existing information is available as to commercial and recreational vessel traffic patterns?   


Related documents
Federal Register - Vol. 72, No. 119 / Thursday, June 21, 2007 – pp. 34241-34249
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/01jan20071800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/2007/pdf/E7-12022.pdf   (PDF document)

Rulemaking Petition Related to Ballast Water – 2 pages
http://www.epa.gov/owow/invasive_species/ballast_water.html

Decision on Petition for Rulemaking to Repeal 40 C.F.R. 122.3(a) – 18 pages
http://www.epa.gov/owow/invasive_species/ballast_report_petition_response.pdf

Federal Court decisions relating to EPA orders to regulate ballast discharge
►March 2005 U.S. District Court Order Granting Summary Judgment (PDF) (19 pp, 124K)
►September 2006 U.S. District Court Order Granting Injunctive Relief (PDF) (21 pp, 150K)

District Court Decision Vacating the Federal Regulation Excluding Discharges Incidental to Normal Vessel Operations from Clean Water Act Permitting as of September 30, 2008 – 2 pages
http://www.epa.gov/owow/invasive_species/VesselFactSheet.pdf

This link takes you directly to the Docket – with all comments posted to date.
http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/component/main?main=DocketDetail&d=EPA-HQ-OW-2007-0483

Remember, comments must be submitted by August 6, 2007.

Dan Thomas, President
Great Lakes Sport Fishing Council
[email protected]

Enjoy.....
"Beer is the living proof God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin

livinbass

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Re: Are you a boater? Better Beware!
« Reply #1 on: Jul 10, 2007, 06:11 PM »
sorry but i think you need to be a lawyer to understand?

turkeyhunter10ga

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Re: Are you a boater? Better Beware!
« Reply #2 on: Jul 11, 2007, 07:26 AM »
sorry but i think you need to be a lawyer to understand?

Basically in laymen terms which is mostly common sense anyway, we recreational boaters need to empty our bilge and livewells from any water stored there before going from lake to lake or in the case of our brethren who live on the coastal waters need to empty both in the existing waters before coming to inland waters.

doctariAFC

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Re: Are you a boater? Better Beware!
« Reply #3 on: Jul 11, 2007, 08:27 AM »
Basically in laymen terms which is mostly common sense anyway, we recreational boaters need to empty our bilge and livewells from any water stored there before going from lake to lake or in the case of our brethren who live on the coastal waters need to empty both in the existing waters before coming to inland waters.
Not exactly.  The specifics of the ruling by this judge will demand that each vessel have a permit to discharge any water that may need discharging during normal operating conditions.  This ruling also extended to DECKWASH and other runoff from a vessel, that again, could happen during normal operating conditions.

Without getting comments on record, the EPA could design a permit that EVERY boater must have in order to pump out a bilge, etc.  This would happen ON THE WATER, as contaminents that may be present in the bottom of your bilge (even though dry when you hit the water) could be discharged when you take on a little water and then pump out.

This one is strange.  Get your comments on record to protect yourselves, folks.  SOme sort of permit will be developed, and no doubt carry a significant cost, and you also know government will look to "guarantee" collection of this fee, probably tying it in to registration costs.  But I get ahead of myself.

Comment period ends August 6, 2007.
"Beer is the living proof God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin

tughillmcd

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Re: Are you a boater? Better Beware!
« Reply #4 on: Jul 11, 2007, 09:35 AM »
Not exactlyThe specifics of the ruling by this judge will demand that each vessel have a permit to discharge any water that may need discharging during normal operating conditions.  This ruling also extended to DECKWASH and other runoff from a vessel, that again, could happen during normal operating conditions.

The decision potentially implicates all vessels, both commercial and recreational, that have discharges incidental to their normal operation (e.g., deck runoff, graywater, etc). "

Not exactly. I don't see the word DEMAND in the original quote, I see POTENTIALLY IMPLICATES. I don't think they really mean the same thing. Actually I think this is part of a bigger conspiricy. The USF&W has got the EPA to help them in their major mission of shutting down Cast and Blast trips and putting guides out of business! They won't be able to afford to operate their boats!

And maybe there should be some regulations on pleasure boats. I think everyone has noticed some pretty foul discharges from some "Recreational Vessels" bilges. My car has to be inspected every year and meet EPA regulations. A permit could be as simple as boats being inspected once a year to see that the bilges are not full of oil etc. and that there are no major leaks or things we wouldn't want in the water anyway. Of course this could change after I get my inspection, but my car's check engine light could come on as soon as I leave the shop also. Of course this would cost some extra money, but isn't keeping the water clean worth something? I know most people would not have problems passing this kind of test, but we have to protect ourselfs from the slobs that don't give a rats bass about anything but themselfs. This along with the common sense of 10ga could go along way to help preserve the future of our sports.

I'm not saying don't be involved in the comment period, but I just don't think it is all Gloom and Doom as it is being implied.

OTIS

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Re: Are you a boater? Better Beware!
« Reply #5 on: Jul 11, 2007, 10:11 AM »
I don't see anything in this that would affect a pontoon type boat, not that that would exempt them from having to be inspected.  It seems rather vague, but I guess that allows for "in the field" ruelings.
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turkeyhunter10ga

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Re: Are you a boater? Better Beware!
« Reply #6 on: Jul 11, 2007, 10:47 AM »
Basically in laymen terms which is mostly common sense anyway, we recreational boaters need to empty our bilge and livewells from any water stored there before going from lake to lake

We already are supposed to be doing this anyway here, when boating or fishing on lake michigan and then going to a different inland lake , we empty drain the hull and livewells to prevent the spread of exotics ( goby, spiney fleas and zebra mussels) to the nearby inland lakes, which BTW have them also now.

In respect to recreational boat owners to have to pay a fee for inadvertant spillage of anything into the waters would be cost prohibitive to us having or using our boats, besides how would the fee systems be set up?
 Would it be for how many times a season or yr that we're actually on the water?  some years i'm only on the water a few times because of other things arising or commitments and others i'm out there every/ or everyother sunday.

I don't see anything in this that would affect a pontoon type boat, not that that would exempt them from having to be inspected.  It seems rather vague, but I guess that allows for "in the field" ruelings.

Think about this,
If anything other than water is/was spilled on the deck of the pontoon other than water there and you docked it for a while and a T storm moved thru dumping a bunch of rain, soaking the carpet and drained off into the lake. This would be polluting the waters with an unnatural liquid.
I'm not playing devils advocate here, but i can see both sides to the issue.

OTIS

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Re: Are you a boater? Better Beware!
« Reply #7 on: Jul 11, 2007, 10:51 AM »
Think about this,
If anything other than water is/was spilled on the deck of the pontoon other than water there and you docked it for a while and a T storm moved thru dumping a bunch of rain, soaking the carpet and drained off into the lake. This would be polluting the waters with an unnatural liquid.
I'm not playing devils advocate here, but i can see both sides to the issue.

Good point, I didn't think of that.  They pretty much have it all covered!
'If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under.' -- Ronald Reagan

'Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the democrats believe every day is April 15.' -- Ronald Reagan

turkeyhunter10ga

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Re: Are you a boater? Better Beware!
« Reply #8 on: Jul 11, 2007, 01:17 PM »
another thing to throw out is nonpoint source pollution. If someone at DOC or whatever they call it in your state wants to control polution being added to the lakes, consider every road that runs around or nearby a lake or any bridge that goes over the waterway has drops of antifreeze, oil, trans fluid or brake fluid on it .      Besides any other kind of road debris which is unnatural to any body of water running off into it after a good rain.
What about road salt or sand/salt mixtures or these new liquid forms of anti icing formulas used to keep ice from our roadways and bridges, these are considered runoff also after a good rain or melt after a thaw. Most roads at least have a gravel or dirt should to partially soak up these things, but on a bridge all you have are drains and tiles that run it  off the bridge directly down into the waterway.

Who is responsible for these things not getting into our waters?
Should we have the states or local govt entities pay for the cleanup?
Or how about having the states etc pay for the very fees we are talking about for our boat's deckwash and bilge polution for their non point source pollution.

doctariAFC

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Re: Are you a boater? Better Beware!
« Reply #9 on: Jul 11, 2007, 01:22 PM »
Not exactly. I don't see the word DEMAND in the original quote, I see POTENTIALLY IMPLICATES. I don't think they really mean the same thing. Actually I think this is part of a bigger conspiricy. The USF&W has got the EPA to help them in their major mission of shutting down Cast and Blast trips and putting guides out of business! They won't be able to afford to operate their boats!

And maybe there should be some regulations on pleasure boats. I think everyone has noticed some pretty foul discharges from some "Recreational Vessels" bilges. My car has to be inspected every year and meet EPA regulations. A permit could be as simple as boats being inspected once a year to see that the bilges are not full of oil etc. and that there are no major leaks or things we wouldn't want in the water anyway. Of course this could change after I get my inspection, but my car's check engine light could come on as soon as I leave the shop also. Of course this would cost some extra money, but isn't keeping the water clean worth something? I know most people would not have problems passing this kind of test, but we have to protect ourselfs from the slobs that don't give a rats bass about anything but themselfs. This along with the common sense of 10ga could go along way to help preserve the future of our sports.

I'm not saying don't be involved in the comment period, but I just don't think it is all Gloom and Doom as it is being implied.
I'll help you out here Tug, as you may not quite understand exactly what this ruling demands...  Yes, DEMANDS...

The judge has ruled against the EPA, siding with the several state DNRs/ DECs in their lawsuit against the EPA over their exempting commercial vessels from the Clean Water Act of 1999, in relation to preventing invasive species and other unwanted contaminents from getting into the Great Lakes chain.

The judge ruled the EPA was in violation and DEMANDED the EPA implement the NPDES permit program to address this and remove the exemption from commercial vessels.  However, in her decision, she INCLUDED recreational vessels.  Here is the analysis from Great Lakes Sportfishing Council President Dan Thomas:

Quote from: Dan Thomas, President GLSFC
GLSFC Special Bulletin

July 6, 2007

 

EPA to regulate discharge permits for commercial & recreational vessels

Federal Court revokes exclusion for discharges; implicates recreational vessels also

The USEPA is in the process of developing National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System (NPDES) permits under the Clean Water Act (CWA) for the discharge of pollutants (dumping dirty ballast water) incidental to the normal operation of vessels and is seeking comment and relevant information from the public on this matter.

Subsequent to the 1999 lawsuit filed by conservation and environmental groups over EPA excluding commercial shipping from the requirement of securing an NPDES permit to dump ballast water - which is almost always contaminated with foreign pathogens or invasive critters - U.S. District Judge Susan Illston (Northern District of California) ruled against EPA and revoked the exclusion the agency had created for commercial shipping. Surprisingly, Illston, in her final ruling potentially implicated all vessels, both commercial and recreational.

That includes you and me.

Review the enclosed document, which includes EPA’s Federal Register announcement on the issue.

Comments are due by August 6, 2007


Any other questions, feel free to ask.  The ruling lumped recreational vessels in with commercial vessels (hence "implicates").  Gte involved and submit a comment.  Comment period closes Aug 6.  If you do not elect to submit a comment and get involved in this one, and you own a boat, then you have ZERO right to gripe if and when the final plan for these permits is crafted, includes your 18' bass boat, and the permit costs you $100.00 per year, paid in advance, when you renew your boat registration. 

I can see it coming....  Why she lumped recreational and commercial vessels in together is mind boggling, but it has happened, and opens the door for another potential revenue stream for the government off our backs.
"Beer is the living proof God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin

doctariAFC

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Re: Are you a boater? Better Beware!
« Reply #10 on: Jul 11, 2007, 01:47 PM »
Here is one comment posted on this subject at the regulations.gov site....

Quote from: comment
General Comment:
As a recreational boater, I would like to see the protection of the environment
and the prevention of non indigenous species from taking over native ecosystems.
As a taxpayer, I would like to see my tax dollars spent on things that actually
make a measurable difference to the above.
Towards this, I would like to see recreational private boating excluded from the
need for an EPA permit to operate on a controlled body of water. Here is why:
Recreational boating is usually transient and the amount of any "normal
operation" discharge would not be measurable. So don't spend a lot of money
setting up a process that will only find "no significant difference" in water
quality.
The only "ballast tank" that I am familiar with in recreational boating is one
designed to increase a boat's wake for wakeboarding. These tanks generally have
to be drained back into the same body of water as they filled from because
keeping that weight would make impossible to trailer the boat. Non indigenous
cross contamination risk is minimal.
Recreational small boaters rarely go outside of the aquatic ecosystem that they
start within. This make the transportation of invasive non indigenous species
unlikely. Areas of the country that do have different ecosystems accessible to
a boat have already enacted state legislation to prevent cross contamination (
not only ballast tank water but also bilge water). We do not need to duplicate
good state regulations at the federal level.
Purchasing an EPA permit would not address any of the potential concerns and
would create a hardship on the general private citizen boating public. Permit
the big commercial boats if you want but leave the private boaters out of it.
The lack of environmental impact and shear number to people that would be
effected by requiring EPA permits makes this a poor use of my tax dollars.
Thank you
Charles Hart
Chattanooga, TN

Want some more???

http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/component/main?main=DocketDetail&d=EPA-HQ-OW-2007-0483

Once you open this up, click on the little Adobe Acrobat doc symbol and read up....  Comment from the National Marine Mfr Assn.

No, there's nothing to this at all.....  Don't worry recreational boaters....  No need to worry at all....

Way to go Tug....  Sorry for jumping on you over this one, but, your post did all boaters/ anglers a major disservice.

Read some of the comments posted on this regulation demand set forth by the judge.  Obviously many well-informed folks are extremely concerned over this decision.  Way to downplay it.....

Sheesh....
"Beer is the living proof God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin

Slimechaser

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Re: Are you a boater? Better Beware!
« Reply #11 on: Jul 11, 2007, 03:39 PM »
I really dun care what I, as a boater, have to endure under this act. I don't deal with transporting any water from lake to lake anyway. Deck wash will need to be ammended out though, since there is little or nothing you can do to stop it anyway.
But I am absolutely thrilled that the ballast waters of ocean going ships will FINALLY be included. I live along the great lakes and have endured invasive critter after other invasive species. Everything from Zebra mussels and Lamprey eels to Asian millfoil plants. I have seen once great salmon fisheries desimated, and forget about the panfish! Now the latest invader, VHS, may or may not have been brought in by ballasts, last I heard the Jury was still out on that. But if it was, as horrible as it is (it causes internal hemmohaging until the fish bleeds out and dies) it's still just 1 of the many evil things brought in by these balast tanks. So at this point, I'll buy into  anything that puts a stop to it!
Rockbass - not just another pretty fish!
Got nymph?         I do!

doctariAFC

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Re: Are you a boater? Better Beware!
« Reply #12 on: Jul 11, 2007, 03:56 PM »
I really dun care what I, as a boater, have to endure under this act. I don't deal with transporting any water from lake to lake anyway. Deck wash will need to be ammended out though, since there is little or nothing you can do to stop it anyway.
But I am absolutely thrilled that the ballast waters of ocean going ships will FINALLY be included. I live along the great lakes and have endured invasive critter after other invasive species. Everything from Zebra mussels and Lamprey eels to Asian millfoil plants. I have seen once great salmon fisheries desimated, and forget about the panfish! Now the latest invader, VHS, may or may not have been brought in by ballasts, last I heard the Jury was still out on that. But if it was, as horrible as it is (it causes internal hemmohaging until the fish bleeds out and dies) it's still just 1 of the many evil things brought in by these balast tanks. So at this point, I'll buy into  anything that puts a stop to it!
Yes, the commercial vessels will hopefully be stopped, but, then again, it was supposed to be stopped with the CWA of 1972, only to have the EPA EXEMPT commercial vessels from this original protection.

So now we fast forward to today....  And it appears in order to halt invasive species entering our waters, we need to include recreational vessels, too???? 

Completely unnecessary.....

Here is another comment.  Read up....

Quote from: Jake Schu
To whom it may concern:

Docket ID No. : EPA-HQ- OW-2007-0483

I was just informed that the USEPA is in the process of developing National
Pollutant Discharge Elimination System (NPDES) permits under the Clean Water
Act (CWA) and that this is now proposed to include recreational vessels as
well as commercial vessels. I served in the US Navy and have operated
recreational vessels of numerous types for almost 40 years. This proposal
appears to be yet another attempt by environmentalist radicals to put
further burdens on the boating community. I offer the following comments
regarding the "public input" requested.

Specifically, the USEPA wants "public input on the following matters:"

(1) What existing public and private data sources are available for use in
identifying, categorizing, and describing the numbers and various types of
commercial and recreational vessels currently operating in waters of the
U.S. and that may have discharges incidental to their normal operation?

The answer to this is that virtually every recreational vessel anywhere has
some sort of "discharge" incidental to their operation. The types can be
generally grouped by propulsion (i.e. sail or power; number of engines,
etc.) The part that will have the most negative impact on recreational
boaters is to accurately describe what "discharges incidental to their
normal operation" actually is and what the purpose in controlling that is.

(2) What is the best way to inform vessel owners of the need to obtain NPDES
permit coverage and what existing public and private data sources are
available that will assist in identifying vessel owners and operators?

Every vessel owner has to either document or register any powered vessel.
However, this method involves the use of Federal and State records of
individual boat owners to track them down to require them to be yet again
burdened with another "permit" requiring a "fee" and unreasonable
regulations. who is going to do this and what will be the cost? I see new,
inflated bureaucratic departments and employment giveaways here for the
political "friends & family" job plan.

(3) What existing public and private data sources are available that
identify the types of normal operations onboard commercial and recreational
vessels that give rise to discharges and the characteristics of such
discharges?

I am aware of no "data sources" that are kept when boats discharge water
after washing your hands or after a rain when there is run-off from the boat
topsides. You see, 99% of all water discharge comes from small sinks, rain
and minor discharges from bilge pumps. In fact, metal and fiberglass hull
designs are usually constructed well sealed to the point that bilge water
seepage is almost non existent through openings in the hull.

(4) What existing information is available as to potential environmental
impacts of discharges incidental to the normal operation of vessels?

Based on what I outlined above, the "environmental impact" of a few gallons
of water per year from recreational boats is too insignificant to even log.

(5) What international, federal, and state limitations or controls already
exist on discharges incidental to the normal operation of vessels?

Recreational and commercial boats on the Great Lakes and all inland
waterways are forbidden from discharging "black water", oil and garbage
overboard. All the EPA needs to do is talk to the Coast Guard and consult
other Federal and state regulations on the subject. These are well
documented and appear to be effective. I see no reason to create additional
laws and restrictions. Enforce the laws you have and you will not need the
additional ones.

(6) What existing information is available on the types of pollution control
equipment or best management practices currently used (or in active
development), and what, if any, are the practical limitations on their use?

"Pollution control" equipment on most recreational vessels amounts to waste
holding tanks and garbage bags and baskets. Garbage and trash are disposed
of when returning to port. Holding tanks for "black water" are pumped out at
authorized pump out facilities; and recreational vessels do not carry
disposable or dischargeable ballast. What else could this judge and the EPA
possibly have in mind?

(7) What existing information is available as to commercial and recreational
vessel traffic patterns?

Commercial vessels used for transport of people or cargo generally follow
established shipping routes. The great part about recreational boating is
that we do not need to follow traffic patterns. We are free to go where we
choose, generally without restrictions, are not required to submit records
of our travels or obtain permits for doing those things. It is called
freedom and the EPA should think before proceeding down this seemingly new
effort by the government to document its citizens and their activities and
levy taxes and fees through "permits" for things that are totally ludicrous.

My question to the EPA is "What is your underlying reason for this new
thrust to permit boaters?". What environmentalist group got bored and came
up with this one; and who's ear do they have in the federal government to
even get this off of the ground?

Jacob E. Schu
"Beer is the living proof God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin

Slimechaser

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Re: Are you a boater? Better Beware!
« Reply #13 on: Jul 11, 2007, 04:35 PM »
I certainly can't argue with your comment above Doctari, that it is completely unnecessary to license us "little" guy's, not to mention nearly impossible to enforce.
And I absolutely see eye to eye with Mr. Schu's statement. I'm sure many of us share the same view of our government "what will they come up with next to seperate me from my money" (- slime '07). And I'm more than a little emo over my "local" waterways.
I would hope that simple common sense would win out here, and I hope the inclusion of pleasure boaters isn't just a tactic intended to kill this thing later down the road. But I'm afraid I've seen enough of the Feds' work to know that my best hopes lie w/ activists such as yourself and the other folks who cared enough to respond here.
So write those darn letters peeps! Get this straight, the impact here is huge, we need those ballasts dumped w/o all of us paying for it! If we do nothing, we lose, again.
Rockbass - not just another pretty fish!
Got nymph?         I do!

tughillmcd

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Re: Are you a boater? Better Beware!
« Reply #14 on: Jul 11, 2007, 08:51 PM »
Quote
Development of Clean Water Act National Pollutant Discharge Elimination System Permits for Discharges Incidental to the Normal Operation of Vessels   


[Federal Register: June 21, 2007 (Volume 72, Number 119)]
[Notices]
[Page 34241-34249]
From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov]
[DOCID:fr21jn07-35]

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ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
[EPA-HQ-OW-2007-0483; FRL-8329-7]

Development of Clean Water Act National Pollutant Discharge
Elimination System Permits for Discharges Incidental to the Normal
Operation of Vessels

AGENCY: Environmental Protection Agency (EPA).
ACTION: Notice of intent; request for comments and information.

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SUMMARY: This notice provides the public with early notification that
EPA is in the process of developing National Pollutant Discharge
Elimination System (NPDES) permits under the Clean Water Act (CWA) for
the discharge of pollutants incidental to the normal operation of
vessels and is seeking comment and relevant information from the public
on this matter. Beginning development of NPDES permitting is necessary
in light of a lawsuit in the U.S. District Court for the Northern
District of California in which the Court found that an EPA regulation,
which excludes certain discharges incidental to the normal operation of
vessels from NPDES permitting, exceeded the Agency's statutory
authority. The Court issued a final order in September 2006 that will
vacate (revoke) the regulatory exclusion for discharges incidental to
the normal operation of vessels effective September 30, 2008. As of
that date, those discharges incidental to the normal operation of
vessels previously excluded from NPDES permitting by the regulation
will become prohibited unless the discharge is covered under an NPDES
permit. The decision potentially implicates all vessels, both
commercial and recreational, that have discharges incidental to their
normal operation (e.g., deck runoff, graywater, etc). Although the
Government is appealing this decision to the U.S. Court of Appeals for
the Ninth Circuit, we believe it is prudent to initiate responsive
action now rather than await the outcome of that appeal.
Accordingly,
today's notice is being issued to make the public aware of this matter
and obtain their input, in the form of public comment or relevant
information, to further help the Agency in the timely development of an
NPDES permitting framework, which has not existed to date for
discharges incidental to the normal operation of vessels.

DATES: Comments must be received on or before August 6, 2007.

http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-WATER/2007/June/Day-21/w12022.htm
I guess the fact it is under appeal isn't news worthy from your sources!


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C. De Minimis Sources of Pollution
Finally, both EPA and the Shipping Coalition argue that the exemption for vessel discharges other than ballast water should remain in place because the other discharges are “de minimis sources of pollution.” EPA Br. at 9-10; Shipping Coalition Br. at 33. The Ninth Circuit has previously found that “the EPA . . . is permitted . . . to exempt de minimis sources of [pollution] from pollution controls.”
They already have the ability to exempt Recreational Vessels.

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De minimis, in a more formal legal sense, means something which is unworthy of the law's attention.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_minimis


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Ballast Water Regulation (January 2007)
EPA has formally appealed to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit two earlier lower court decisions that would vacate, as of September 30, 2008, EPA's long-standing rule exempting ballast water discharges from Clean Water Act permitting requirements. The appeal includes the scope of the exemption for discharges incidental to the normal operation of a vessel. Meanwhile, EPA, the U.S. Coast Guard, and other federal agencies are working on procedures intended to address concerns with invasive species associated with ballast water discharges.
http://www.nstcenter.com/writeup.aspx?reportid=25
In your eyes I may be doing a great disservice to all boaters,  but Chicken Little, The Sky Ain't Fallin. Now I noticed there are a whole 16 public comments, 3 from 1 person and 4 from the President of the National Marine Manufacturers Association, just wondering which one of them you wrote. And how many others are from your fellow federation members?

After reading the judges ruling (man is that carp dull and dry), the decision is based on the fact that the Clean Water Act is not being enforced as Congress intended (per the judge). Maybe we would be better served by appealling to Congress to ammend the CWA to exclude Recreational Vessels, then it is out of the EPA's as well as the judges hands. In case you haven't noticed there are a few politician's out stumpin lately and this may be a good time to address such an issue. It just may get through Congress pretty easily right now. Good publicity. Just a thought.

This avenue also gets us out of the fight to overturn the part about the ballast water discharges. They are using us as a pawn to acheive their greater goal, overturn the judges entire ruling! The EPA doesn't want to have to deal with anything more than they do now, read the ruling. They are appealing the entire ruling, not because of you and me, because of the ballast water issue. They believe enough is already being done and they are trying to get anyone to side with them to further their cause. The parties arguing side by side in this case were the EPA and the Shipping Colition. Sheesh..........

By the way Doc, you can jump all you want. I would rather approach this with an open mind and do a little reading before telling everyone "Better Beware" because you read a letter from someone that read the EPA announcment and sent it around, speculating that "the EPA is out to get us" without getting more of the skinny on it.  Talk about knee jerk reactions. Lets all blindly get onboard and help the Shipping Colition keep their ballast water restrictions as they are! Sheesh..........

 



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