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My Fish Finder Main => General Fishing Discussion => Topic started by: taxid on Dec 12, 2020, 09:33 PM

Title: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: taxid on Dec 12, 2020, 09:33 PM
Holy Batman look at the price of this battery!

https://dakotalithium.com/product/dakota-lithium-12v-100ah-deep-cyle-lifepo4-marine-solar-battery/?fbclid=IwAR2dt8qW9TwyzrqJXYWaGCYyUiH0J2HhK_EL1o6jK-IIvhDth9O4Jh0SsrE
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: fishinator on Dec 13, 2020, 06:29 AM
That does seem excessive at first glance. But if they really do last 4 times as long as SLA batteries (2000 cycles vs 500) then I would say its worth it. I pay about $200 each for interstate group 31.
  Those are way lighter and have more capacity. And that deal includes a charger. Big initial investment but over the long haul its really about the same.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: taxid on Dec 13, 2020, 07:39 AM
That does seem excessive at first glance. But if they really do last 4 times as long as SLA batteries (2000 cycles vs 500) then I would say its worth it. I pay about $200 each for interstate group 31.
  Those are way lighter and have more capacity. And that deal includes a charger. Big initial investment but over the long haul its really about the same.

I guess I didn't do the math. Didn't see the charger included either.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on Dec 13, 2020, 10:53 AM
Jeff and I are currently negotiating on a 200aH liFePo unit from this place.

https://www.lithium-battery-factory.com/product/36v-200ah-lithium-rv-batteries/#body_sele (https://www.lithium-battery-factory.com/product/36v-200ah-lithium-rv-batteries/#body_sele)


A bit less money for it than Dakota.
I have done a ton of research on these, and the companies involved.

I want 150ah minimum, but strongly want the 200ah.
Unlike lead acid deep storage batteries, if you charge a LiFePo battery sooner, when it is still at a higher percentage charged, you will get more charge cycles out of it.
BTW, you want a LiFePo battery as these do not have the fire/explosion issues related to the earlier lithium batteries that we have heard about.

A deep cycle only has X amount of charges.  That's it.  Which is one of the reasons you are instructed to take them down low before charging them.  They are built to handle this, hence the "deep cycle" designation.
Unlike car and boat starting batteries that are buiilt for super high current draws for short bursts, and require steady charging.
Also, after each charge you get a reduced ah available from the battery.  They age and you realize this.
So each cycle lead acid batteries give you less time out on the water.
LiFePo batteries do not act this way.

500 charge cycles is a tad low if a guy were to seriously take super good care of his lead acid deep cycle batteries.
So let's say 600 charges.
And I know that if you buy larger 200ah LiFePo batteries, and only use say 150ah of them, that 2000 charge cycles now goes up  to like 2666 charge cycles.  (2000/.75=2666)
But if I inly use 1/2 (100ah), it now goes up to 4000 charge cycles.
So let's use the 3000 vs 600 and I now get 5X the life.
I was looking at $180 Duracells from Sams Club.
I needed 3 to get the 36 vdc I need, and they would only be 100ah.
(If I want 200ah I would need 6 batteries wired in series parallel)
So three (3) batteries cost me almost $600 with the sales tax (not including the core charge they hit me with either)
Six is $1200.

The 36vdc 200ah LiFePo unit is $2500 (I'm working on getting that down).
This $2500 includes the charger, overseas shipping, the BMS, and the optional bluetooth feature so I can monitor the battery from our smartphone.

So, for 5X the life, I am paying 3.125X the cost of the 3 lesser ah batteries.
And an even better deal if I can get him down to $2000.
Not to mention the savings if I went with 6 lead acid batteries.

Yup, major investment to say the least.
But huge payback.

Also, my plan is to pull that battery and take to Florida for my other boat down there during the winter.
The seriously lighter weight is a major factor here for this.

Next, let's assume I only use my boat 3X a week.
That's like every other day.
I might do this at first when retired, but doubtful it would continue.
Still, lets assume this.
That's roughly 150 charges a year.
If I get 2600 charges out of the battery it works out to more than 17 yrs.
In reality, this battery will most likely outlive me and Jeff will contune using it.

Again, yup -  major outlay in cash.
But if you do the math it really pays for itself.

I have the 36VDC Minn Kota.
Now I need a battery.
We will order this thing in the next couple weeks.
It takes about 24 days to build and they say about 35 days to ship.
So we are looking at 2 months before we get it without any delays.
I want the battery in late March so this works for us.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: filetandrelease on Dec 13, 2020, 11:49 AM

 Mac are you putting in an lithium on board charger, and a lithium crank battery
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on Dec 13, 2020, 01:30 PM
Mac are you putting in an lithium on board charger, and a lithium crank battery

The single 36vdc 200ah battery we are buying for the Minn Kota will come with its own charger from the manufacturer.

This means Iíll be selling my 3 bank on board charger in the Spring if anyone is interested.  BTW, it can charge lithium batteries too.

We are going to replace both of the crank batteries with standard lead acid series 24ís.  Might go dual purpose here but not sure yet.  I already have the 2 bank on board charger installed for these.  I mounted it in the cuddy and ran heavy gage wires rear to the batteries in the bilge area last summer.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: filetandrelease on Dec 13, 2020, 02:05 PM
 
 Nice
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on Dec 13, 2020, 02:25 PM
I hope so anyway.
Iíll keep everyone posted on the good and the bad.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: filetandrelease on Dec 13, 2020, 03:13 PM

 Thanks
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: zwiggles on Dec 13, 2020, 09:07 PM
Thanks

X2
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: mcully on Dec 14, 2020, 08:08 AM
Did they give you a weight estimate on the unit you want?
Is the single battery footprint much smaller than three lead acids?
Always looking for less weight and more space.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on Dec 14, 2020, 08:26 AM
Did they give you a weight estimate on the unit you want?
Is the single battery footprint much smaller than three lead acids?
Always looking for less weight and more space.


yes and yes.
Weight is about 122# for the single 36 VDC unit.
The size can be custom done but that costs more.
I don't have the size of mine yet and I'm still working on the price with the guy.
I thought about puting it inside this side area on the port side down in the cuddy.
That will require a long narrow battery, but it gets it out of the way.
If I put it all the way up front in the bow it provides a little ballast up front and I can let them decide on the physical size and save a few bucks.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on Dec 14, 2020, 08:49 AM
I pulled all the batteries out of my boat yesterday, brought them inside and boy I sure wish I had lighter batteries. Those 3 group 31's are heavy.

Lithium would be great, but I am happy with the money I paid for the Interstates. $179 ea for group 31 batteries. Yes, way less charge cycles and like you said Mac, it gets weaker each cycle, but for the money and with a good charger I should still have these for many years to come. If you take care of them the decreasing performance becomes nominal. Would lithium be better- oh you betcha. But I'm not spending $2500 on a battery!

One thing I worry about Mac, the lithium batteries which I am very familiar with since I've been using a bunch from Amped Outdoors last year, they use that battery management system (BMS). They are regulated batteries which means they push the same, exact amount of power for a given time until it shuts off completely. Not like lead acid where it's only full power the first few moments of using it, then it's a very gradual but continuous drop off until the battery is dead. There have been a lot of times with my Ulterra that I have pushed the wet cell batteries HARD, so much I am worried it won't auto stow but it always does. The lithium with the BMS, if you push past a certain point, you won't get any voltage to the motor at all. The lead acid at least I have enough to stow the motor. That's my only worry with the lithium. I'd rather have it pushing a weak 36v of power than having a BMS that cuts all power once it dips below a certain capacity. Or at least I think I would.

The bonus is I'd be able to have a very accurate battery gauge, not like the gauge I have now for lead acid. With lithium and the BMS you'd be able to know exactly how many hours/minutes or even seconds of battery you have left. That would be really nice. A lead acid gauge is kinda like a mystery. You know how many resting volts you have, but not how many amps it's pushing.

What Duracells were you looking at that were 100ah? They must not be group 31's. I have 210ah batteries.

Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on Dec 14, 2020, 10:39 AM
I pulled all the batteries out of my boat yesterday, brought them inside and boy I sure wish I had lighter batteries. Those 3 group 31's are heavy.

Lithium would be great, but I am happy with the money I paid for the Interstates. $179 ea for group 31 batteries. Yes, way less charge cycles and like you said Mac, it gets weaker each cycle, but for the money and with a good charger I should still have these for many years to come. If you take care of them the decreasing performance becomes nominal. Would lithium be better- oh you betcha. But I'm not spending $2500 on a battery!

One thing I worry about Mac, the lithium batteries which I am very familiar with since I've been using a bunch from Amped Outdoors last year, they use that battery management system (BMS). They are regulated batteries which means they push the same, exact amount of power for a given time until it shuts off completely. Not like lead acid where it's only full power the first few moments of using it, then it's a very gradual but continuous drop off until the battery is dead. There have been a lot of times with my Ulterra that I have pushed the wet cell batteries HARD, so much I am worried it won't auto stow but it always does. The lithium with the BMS, if you push past a certain point, you won't get any voltage to the motor at all. The lead acid at least I have enough to stow the motor. That's my only worry with the lithium. I'd rather have it pushing a weak 36v of power than having a BMS that cuts all power once it dips below a certain capacity. Or at least I think I would.

The bonus is I'd be able to have a very accurate battery gauge, not like the gauge I have now for lead acid. With lithium and the BMS you'd be able to know exactly how many hours/minutes or even seconds of battery you have left. That would be really nice. A lead acid gauge is kinda like a mystery. You know how many resting volts you have, but not how many amps it's pushing.

What Duracells were you looking at that were 100ah? They must not be group 31's. I have 210ah batteries.


Geoff - Interstate 31's are not 210ah.  (sorry buddy)
That 210ah is RC (Reserve Capacity) Min @ 25 Amp draw.
It's a good indicator but not true ah for the battery.
Here's a good link -

https://www.autobatteries.com/en-us/how-to-choose-your-car-battery-replacement/reserve-capacity-c20-amp-hour-ah (https://www.autobatteries.com/en-us/how-to-choose-your-car-battery-replacement/reserve-capacity-c20-amp-hour-ah)


The 112 Ulterra's we bought will draw 50 amps at full throttle per Minn Kota.
So using 25 amps for comparative purposes isn't really a bad thing.

The Duracel's I was looking at are the 31's that are AGM.

https://www.samsclub.com/p/duracell-agm-deep-cycle-marine-and-rv-battery-group-size-31dtmagm/prod3590232?xid=plp_product_4 (https://www.samsclub.com/p/duracell-agm-deep-cycle-marine-and-rv-battery-group-size-31dtmagm/prod3590232?xid=plp_product_4)

RC is almost as yours at 200
But look closer at  that link and look at "Minutes at 25 amps:210"
That is only 3.5 hrs

I have spoken to guys that actually use the trolling motor to "troll" and this is what they are getting, depending on how high or low the setting is they are using.
Yea, I know.......YMMV.
Anyway, as you know, I went thru all of this on my Lund with the 80# Terrova years back and ended up with two 24's in parallel with two 31's in order to get enough time out on the water.
I estimated I had a total of about 140-150 ah, when they were new.
It worked and gave me 6+ hrs of trolling as I was looking for.
Now I have a much larger boat and will need more thrust - hence the 112# vs the 80# I had on the Lund.
And I'm figuring I will need the same ah, or 150, to get the job done.
So my decision to go with the 200ah unit whould work pretty good.

The thing is that there are no real numbers published by these battery companies that I really trust.
And there is probably no way to trully compare the lead acid batteries to the LiFePo batteries.
So it's a crap shoot, kinda.

I will run the Ulterra up front for steering and 20-30% of the thrust required to troll for walleye and salmon at 1.6-4 mph.
The Honda 15hp 4-stroke on the transom will handle 70-80% of the thrust.
Walleyes we typically are at 1.6 - 2.5, being mostly in the 1.8-2.2 area.
So walleye trolling I should get longer days than salmon trolling at say 2.5-3.5 mph.
But I don't salmon troll that often and when we do I don't go all day.

The stowing with a dead battery can certainly be a problem.
We are getting the BMS with a gage on it that shows battery life remaining, etc. as you mentioned.
I am also electing to get the bluetooth option so I can also monitor this info on my smartphone.
But I have a phillips screwdriver and other tools on board if I goof up and somehow need to manually stow the motor.
I watched the video on Youtube and it isn't hard, however doing it in 3-4's up there on the bow might prove dicey - lol
Here is a link to a few of the videos if you haven't seen any yet -

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ulterra+manual+stow (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ulterra+manual+stow)

This was one of the reasons I tossed back and forth between the Ulterra and the Terrova so much.
But I now have the Ulterra and need to live with it - and make sure I'm prepared as well as I can be.

Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on Dec 14, 2020, 12:28 PM
Oh, interesting, that makes sense.

The lithium will definitely be an accurate battery gauge which would be nice. I'm hoping some day that technology comes down in price, but until then I am happy with the lead acids other than moving the d**n things. I've salmon trolled for 16 hours in harmony with the gas kicker no problem, so I am happy with my capacity for now. Hopefully I don't notice too much drop in performance as they age, but I might because I use them hard. Drain them every time pretty much.

They tell you to do the auto stow procedure but to reset it is supposed to be done by Minn Kota, so I want to avoid that. But to be honest the auto trim motor has a clip to disconnect it... you can just use that and a bunch of straps to hold the heavy motor up while the shaft stays in the upright position. I don't know why the emergency stow procedure includes removing the lift piston.. I would drive with it in the upright position before I disconnected the lift piston, but what do I know.

Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on Dec 14, 2020, 12:38 PM
Oh, interesting, that makes sense.

The lithium will definitely be an accurate battery gauge which would be nice. I'm hoping some day that technology comes down in price, but until then I am happy with the lead acids other than moving the d**n things. I've salmon trolled for 16 hours in harmony with the gas kicker no problem, so I am happy with my capacity for now. Hopefully I don't notice too much drop in performance as they age, but I might because I use them hard. Drain them every time pretty much.

They tell you to do the auto stow procedure but to reset it is supposed to be done by Minn Kota, so I want to avoid that. But to be honest the auto trim motor has a clip to disconnect it... you can just use that and a bunch of straps to hold the heavy motor up while the shaft stays in the upright position. I don't know why the emergency stow procedure includes removing the lift piston.. I would drive with it in the upright position before I disconnected the lift piston, but what do I know.


I troll on Lakes Erie and Ontario Geoff.
I think your lakes are smaller - less rough and less wind.
When I'm out there and it's glass the batteries last forever.
Or when trolling with the wind.
But when we quarter or head into them that ipilot is working its tail off and sucking major on those batteries.


Your mention of pulling the clip on the trim unit and strapping it up in the vertical position suprised me as I wondered the very same thing when I watched a few of those videos.
No disconnecting the side plates, lift piston, etc.
Pull the pin, lift the shaft, and bungee things in place to get into shore.
Then recharge the batteries and stow the unit regularly.

We both should do this next season as a dry run to verify this works.

Thanks!!!!
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on Dec 14, 2020, 06:59 PM
Yep, well I plan on doing it at some point, surprised it hasn't happened yet. But with the wet cells it seems- going by the half useful gauge- that it will stop working by dropping too much voltage at some point. Then if I let the motor sit idle for a while the batteries sorta come back into it, like the voltage floats back enough for what I would hope would allow it to stow. I'll find out at some point. It will likely fail to stow at the 45 degree point which would be less than ideal if you ask me. I'd rather drive home with it on the trailer standing straight up.

Your lakes are indeed a whole different ballgame than mine! I'll be interested in hearing your experiences with the lithium. One thing I learned with my battery box over the winter, lithium power is far more powerful than lead acid, even for similar specs. Its weird, but my experience. I calculated 60 amps of power I'd needed for my battery box, but I never even use half of it. And its always the same, no matter how much you abuse it. Like, you know how wet cells can get abused and they are never the same again? Lithium power is always the same, every charge. So expensive though!! Definitely the gold standard.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on Dec 14, 2020, 08:17 PM
I wonder the ramifications of riding back into the dock with that shaft straight up?
Flexing to and fro.
Wonder if that might cause damage?
I wonder what Minn Kota would say about it.
Probably tell you not to do it so they don't tget into trouble endorsing something questionable.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: swnoel on Feb 27, 2021, 08:58 AM
I just ordered 2 100Ah lithiums from Battle Born out of Nevada. American made! I almost bought 2 100Ah  AGMs, but my wife explained to me that my back was more important (31# each in comparison to 67#!)and I couldn't take it with me! She had a point there and with a 10 year warranty I decided to go ahead. These are drop in batteries that will hook up to an onboard charger if it has the AGM setting. The AGM batteries were $245 each with a 30 month replacement, the Battle Born are $849 with a 10 year warranty. After doing some intense research I found out lithium batteries aren't all the same... you get what you pay for! For those serious about quality and American made give these guys a call... you won't be disappointed. I'll be giving my opinion and reviews as this season gets underway.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: mcully on Mar 02, 2021, 11:04 AM
Could you unplug your unit and unhook it from the mount and bring it into the boat for the ride if it didn't stow? My manual lift is on a quick mount pad so I could if I had to.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on Mar 02, 2021, 11:37 AM
Could you unplug your unit and unhook it from the mount and bring it into the boat for the ride if it didn't stow? My manual lift is on a quick mount pad so I could if I had to.

there is a way to manualy stow it if things go south.
There are a few You Tube videos on the procedure.
Here is one -

Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: swnoel on Mar 02, 2021, 03:01 PM
Could you unplug your unit and unhook it from the mount and bring it into the boat for the ride if it didn't stow? My manual lift is on a quick mount pad so I could if I had to.


I'd try that first rather than loosing the screws overboard. I suppose you could get some extra screws expecting it. I think I'm going to try it early this season just to see if it's going to be too difficult.











Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on Mar 02, 2021, 03:28 PM

I'd try that first rather than loosing the screws overboard. I suppose you could get some extra screws expecting it. I think I'm going to try it early this season just to see if it's going to be too difficult.


I'm not mounting mine on a quick disconnect purposely.
The quick disconnect raises the unit and I need all the shaft length I can muster on my boat (I know..........).
So I'll just need to be careful not to lose the screws.
Also, Jethro (Geoff) and I decided you really don't need to take out the screws.
Just pull the flat pin and raise the shaft and tied the unit there in the raised position for the ride back in.
Put it onto the trailer and then do the screw thing before you tow it home.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: swnoel on Mar 02, 2021, 05:22 PM

I'm not mounting mine on a quick disconnect purposely.
The quick disconnect raises the unit and I need all the shaft length I can muster on my boat (I know..........).
So I'll just need to be careful not to lose the screws.
Also, Jethro (Geoff) and I decided you really don't need to take out the screws.
Just pull the flat pin and raise the shaft and tied the unit there in the raised position for the ride back in.
Put it onto the trailer and then do the screw thing before you tow it home.

Good to know you can just pull the pin... I'll check that out. Am I assuming that by pulling out the flat pin you can raise it up but not fold in down?
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on Mar 02, 2021, 06:28 PM
Good to know you can just pull the pin... I'll check that out. Am I assuming that by pulling out the flat pin you can raise it up but not fold in down?

Yup!

Hey Geoff - where are you??
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on Mar 25, 2021, 09:23 AM
Good to know you can just pull the pin... I'll check that out. Am I assuming that by pulling out the flat pin you can raise it up but not fold in down?

This is correct. The pin only disengages the trim motor from the shaft. The lift/stow mechanism is separate and that is what folds it down.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on Mar 25, 2021, 10:16 AM
This is correct. The pin only disengages the trim motor from the shaft. The lift/stow mechanism is separate and that is what folds it down.


HEY!!!!
W T F you been.
Welcome back.

 8)
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on Mar 25, 2021, 02:55 PM

HEY!!!!
W T F you been.
Welcome back.

 8)

I been on that ice fishing site!! And working.

I want lithium batteries bad. Getting ready to re-install my lead acid deep cycles back in the boat.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on Mar 25, 2021, 06:21 PM
I been on that ice fishing site!! And working.

I want lithium batteries bad. Getting ready to re-install my lead acid deep cycles back in the boat.

You coulda stopped by and said hi

Lol

Mine shipped 2 weeks ago
Will be another2-4 weeks yet before it shows up.
The 3 chargers showed a week or so back but they were air freight and a typical commodity.  So no customs hang ups.
The battery however comes via ship and because of the technology it spends a little time in customs.
Iím stoked!!!
200ah
Gideeup
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: swnoel on Mar 26, 2021, 08:53 AM
It's amazing how light the batteries are in comparison to the lead battery! My back thanks the technology!
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on Mar 26, 2021, 08:57 AM
You coulda stopped by and said hi

Lol

Mine shipped 2 weeks ago
Will be another2-4 weeks yet before it shows up.
The 3 chargers showed a week or so back but they were air freight and a typical commodity.  So no customs hang ups.
The battery however comes via ship and because of the technology it spends a little time in customs.
Iím stoked!!!
200ah
Gideeup

You're right, I shoulda poked my head in. SHAME!

You say 3 chargers but isn't the battery a single 36v, 200ah lithium battery? Or did you get 3 12v, 200ah batts? And are the batteries the same size as group 31 batts? DETAILS MAN!!!
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on Mar 26, 2021, 10:03 AM
You're right, I shoulda poked my head in. SHAME!

You say 3 chargers but isn't the battery a single 36v, 200ah lithium battery? Or did you get 3 12v, 200ah batts? And are the batteries the same size as group 31 batts? DETAILS MAN!!!

Itís all in the boat thread but ok
I bought a single 36VDC, 200ah battery
(Lead acid 31ís are about 100ah)
So I have 2X the capacity of a 31
BUT, the voltage stays constant till about 3-5% (vs lead acid where the voltage drops off at like 60%).
I bought two 8amp chargers, one for up here and one for Florida.  Iím going to take the battery with me every year for my other boat down there.  This is how I helped to justify the large cost.
I also bought a 30amp charger for when I need a quicker charge.  Trips where Iím fishing a lot.  Or occasionally when I go back out later in the day out at the lake.  However, they goofed and sent me a 20amp and so Iím getting a refund for the difference ($80).
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on Mar 26, 2021, 10:49 AM
I'm interested in what you get for run time. I get some pretty serious run time with my Interstates so with the lithiums it ought to be insane.

Are these chargers mounted on board?
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on Mar 26, 2021, 01:56 PM
I'm interested in what you get for run time. I get some pretty serious run time with my Interstates so with the lithiums it ought to be insane.

Are these chargers mounted on board?

I could mount them on board.
They aren't waterproof by any means.
Wait.
I'll post a photo of one of the 8a units
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on Mar 26, 2021, 01:58 PM
Outlet wire to battery


(https://i.postimg.cc/H8bNKTWJ/19-FD1595-A488-4-E2-F-BDB5-0-C9-EF58-EBF23.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/H8bNKTWJ)


120 inlet side of unit




(https://i.postimg.cc/NKdzZJtx/862-A3-AB0-E374-4528-B9-B7-334-E3-BD6-C771.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/NKdzZJtx)
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on Mar 26, 2021, 01:59 PM
I'm putting them in my cuddy where it's dry.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: lowaccord66 on Apr 11, 2021, 12:54 PM
I was going to go this route but can't drain the 3 arm's I have even though they are group 24's. 

I dont get your plan Mac...charger for quicker charges when you fish a lot?  200ah is a lot of juice.. you really think you are going to run that down fast?

Keep in mind some days I'm spot locked 10 hrs and even I can't kill 3 small arms. 
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on Apr 11, 2021, 03:18 PM
I was going to go this route but can't drain the 3 arm's I have even though they are group 24's. 

I dont get your plan Mac...charger for quicker charges when you fish a lot?  200ah is a lot of juice.. you really think you are going to run that down fast?

Keep in mind some days I'm spot locked 10 hrs and even I can't kill 3 small arms.

Yesterday I trolled the big lake in NH from 6:30am to 5:30pm using my Ulterra to autopilot with my kicker almost non-stop and at 5:30 I was nervous there wasn't enough juice to stow. I have 3 group 31's, only 100ah or so. It was sketchy but she stowed! My boat is pretty big, Macs is considerably bigger. If I was replacing these batteries I'd be looking the same route myself, I'd like that kinda power to go multiple days. 200ah in a single 36v battery? I'd need 450lbs of battery to match that.

As a sidenote, don't mean to threadjack, finally got to use the Minn Kota/Humminbird "Follow the contour" mode for staying in 25 feet of water, what a gamechager for early ice out fishing. Wish Lakemaster would add more lakes in Maine.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on Apr 12, 2021, 07:18 AM
I was going to go this route but can't drain the 3 arm's I have even though they are group 24's. 

I dont get your plan Mac...charger for quicker charges when you fish a lot?  200ah is a lot of juice.. you really think you are going to run that down fast?

Keep in mind some days I'm spot locked 10 hrs and even I can't kill 3 small arms.

I used to burn up my 31's in about 6-7 hrs of trolling on my Lund.
They were 100ah.
So I added a pair of 24's to them in parallel, which were about 60ah.
So I then had a total of about 160 ah and never ran out after that.
The Lund was only 16.5'.
My Trophy is 21', wider by about a foot, and weighs about double the Lund.
I'm going with 36VDC now, instead of the 24 that was on the Lund.
Like Geoff said, my new 36V, 200ah unit will only weigh 121 pounds according to the supplier.
If I matched the ah in lead acid units I would need six 31's at about 65# apeice for almost 400#.
Like most all batteries, they like to be charged slower rather than faster.
So normally I'll use the 8amp charger.
But when we take our fishing trips we fish long hard days every day and will burn up more battery and have less time to recharge.
So then we will use the 20amp charger.
I will probably never need 200ah, but I would rather have more than needed than not enough.
Also like Geoff said, I don't want to chance not having enough juice at the end of the day to auto-stow the Ulterra.
I paid only $2600 for 3 chargers, the 36V, 200ah battery, and the bluetooth opion to monitor things from my smart device.
Go price Dakotas or others for a comparison.
(They don't even offer 200ah units BTW)
I got a really sweet deal.
Now if the battery would only show up.
 8)
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on Apr 12, 2021, 08:37 AM
For $2600 it's super worth it. I tend to deep discharge my wet cells almost every time I use them, so it's likely I will need a new set of batteries in about 200 charge cycles- if I am lucky. Not to mention my performance will decrease almost every time I use them. They are $180 a piece so it's $540 to repower. The lithium doesn't suffer decreased performance at all when you deep discharge. You can empty them completely and still get perfect performance for thousands of cycles. It's a true win in every category- including overall cost. The only disadvantage is the initial cost.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on Apr 12, 2021, 02:44 PM
For $2600 it's super worth it. I tend to deep discharge my wet cells almost every time I use them, so it's likely I will need a new set of batteries in about 200 charge cycles- if I am lucky. Not to mention my performance will decrease almost every time I use them. They are $180 a piece so it's $540 to repower. The lithium doesn't suffer decreased performance at all when you deep discharge. You can empty them completely and still get perfect performance for thousands of cycles. It's a true win in every category- including overall cost. The only disadvantage is the initial cost.


Yea Geoff - these batteries will probably outlast me.
Lead acid batteries go to heck if discharged below 50% as you know, reducing the lfe.
I'm being told to expect 4000-6000 charge cycles with the lithium.
If I only assume 3000 charge cycles and fish 150X a year (recharging 150X a year), this would give me a 20 year lifespan on the battery.
I turn 65 in July.
That would make it last until I'm at least 85.
But more realistically they will last my son Jeff for maybe 25-30 years.
Yup - big time outlay, but a big time payback.
My plan is to haul it to Florida with me winters for use in the pontoon I'm planning to buy down there.
So I'll get double duty
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: mcully on Apr 13, 2021, 05:39 AM
What's your thought on the onboard charger holding up in a marine environment even in the cuddy?
I trailer so I guess I could just take it in and out but it is nice to just run the cord to an outlet.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on Apr 13, 2021, 08:29 AM
What's your thought on the onboard charger holding up in a marine environment even in the cuddy?
I trailer so I guess I could just take it in and out but it is nice to just run the cord to an outlet.

Nope
Itís not water resistant (nothing is water proof).
That being said you can always take precautions.
Years back I had an auto Pioneer Supertuner I wanted to use on my boat.  I bought a marine radio box from a local boating supply house and mounted it inside.  Solved.
Always a way.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: mcully on Apr 13, 2021, 08:38 AM
Nope
Itís not water resistant (nothing is water proof).
That being said you can always take precautions.
Years back I had an auto Pioneer Supertuner I wanted to use on my boat.  I bought a marine radio box from a local boating supply house and mounted it inside.  Solved.
Always a way.
I hear you. Just like guys thinking because it says stainless it can't rust.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: lowaccord66 on Apr 21, 2021, 10:25 PM
What's your thought on the onboard charger holding up in a marine environment even in the cuddy?
I trailer so I guess I could just take it in and out but it is nice to just run the cord to an outlet.

I have minnkota's latest and greatest...4 bank, 100% sealed and will do lithium batteries not just agms. Works great.  Just plug in at the air bnb or hotel and I'm good to go.

Not sure what Mac is smoking (it's legal now!) but there's a number of sealed multi bank chargers out there that are very nice. 
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on Apr 21, 2021, 10:37 PM
I have minnkota's latest and greatest...4 bank, 100% sealed and will do lithium batteries not just agms. Works great.  Just plug in at the air bnb or hotel and I'm good to go.

Not sure what Mac is smoking (it's legal now!) but there's a number of sealed multi bank chargers out there that are very nice.


Waterproof basically means you can toss it overboard while plugged in and it will still operate.
Water resistant means it will live in a marine environment.

Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on Apr 22, 2021, 09:43 AM
I have minnkota's latest and greatest...4 bank, 100% sealed and will do lithium batteries not just agms. Works great.  Just plug in at the air bnb or hotel and I'm good to go.

Not sure what Mac is smoking (it's legal now!) but there's a number of sealed multi bank chargers out there that are very nice.

Yeah I got a Minn Kota Precision 3 bank and the documents it came with said it's completely waterproof. Sure looks sealed to me. Minn Kota says you can charge lithium batts with it on the AGM mode.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on Apr 22, 2021, 11:10 AM
Yeah I got a Minn Kota Precision 3 bank and the documents it came with said it's completely waterproof. Sure looks sealed to me. Minn Kota says you can charge lithium batts with it on the AGM mode.


I'm on a lithium battery board Geoff.
People on there, many that are FAR more electrically savy than myslef, say that it isn't a good idea to use standard chargers for LiFePo4 batteries, even if the battery company claims to be able to do it.
They say to use the charger specifically designed for that BMS in your LiFePo4 battery, whichever it is.
There are tons of reasons they give, but the largest is that they are made to operate together and will lead to the longest life of the battery.
Being that these batteries are major bucks, I will err on the side of caution and use the one recommended and supplied by my bettery supplier.
Even if it isn't waterproof/resistant.
The chargers I bought have cooling fans in them and are no way sealed.
But they will located down in my cuddy and away from any direct water.


Now, I bought a 2nd 8amp charger, for use when I retire down in Florida.
I plan on taking the battery with me winters down there to be used on my pontoon boat.
I will buy a 36VDC Terrova ipilot for it (not an Ulterra).
This will give me double duty on the battery and has helped me to justify the huge cost of it.
Anyway, I will have to figure out a way to isolate the charger from rain and moisture without overheating it.
Unsure yet, but I'll figure it out.
With the salt water I will be in, it will probably be best for me to simply haul it out of my storage shed as needed and simply plug it into things on temporary basises.
The BMS in the battery has the bluetooth option that allows me to use a fee app I downloaded to my smartphone.
This app allows me to monitor the battery level while using it and also while charging.
So I can plug in when it gets down to 20-30%.
But more importantly it allows me to go out and pull it off the battery when it finishes charging and the battery is at 100%.
Cool feature.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: swnoel on Apr 22, 2021, 11:18 AM
Yeah I got a Minn Kota Precision 3 bank and the documents it came with said it's completely waterproof. Sure looks sealed to me. Minn Kota says you can charge lithium batts with it on the AGM mode.

That's the one I have and it works great for my lithium batteries.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on Apr 22, 2021, 11:44 AM
My new Minn Kota 3 bank for the 2 main motor batteries and the trailer winch deep cycle.


(https://i.postimg.cc/gnkHbS9Z/634478-B6-9647-4-ED9-B3-B5-3-A02-FE5-E5-BCC.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gnkHbS9Z)


Notice the asterisk -


(https://i.postimg.cc/Cz1kQRDC/8-F62-F850-E761-435-B-BA46-4-E986-D3-B81-EB.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Cz1kQRDC)
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on Apr 22, 2021, 12:19 PM
Yes, I would certainly do whatever the lithium battery manufacturer says, those things are too expensive to risk. I have the same charger just 10 amps per bank.

I ended up wiring my Strongarm power winch to the truck. That's how I had my last truck wired.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on Apr 22, 2021, 12:36 PM
Yes, I would certainly do whatever the lithium battery manufacturer says, those things are too expensive to risk. I have the same charger just 10 amps per bank.

I ended up wiring my Strongarm power winch to the truck. That's how I had my last truck wired.

This winch needed a minum of 650 CCA.
(It's a brute!!)
I couldn't find a plug rated to handle the current.
So I mounted a deepcycle rated at 650 CCA to the trailer for it.
Works!


(https://i.postimg.cc/jwJXWLqY/thumbnail-IMG-5690.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jwJXWLqY)
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on Apr 23, 2021, 08:05 AM
Wow, yeah that thing is a beast alright. My Strongarm is a boat specific winch and only meant for horizontal pulling. It came with the harness and plug and it looks like it's only 10ga wire.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: lowaccord66 on May 04, 2021, 02:20 PM

Waterproof basically means you can toss it overboard while plugged in and it will still operate.
Water resistant means it will live in a marine environment.

I've tested mine to be waterproof.  Dont ask...
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: lowaccord66 on May 04, 2021, 02:22 PM
My new Minn Kota 3 bank for the 2 main motor batteries and the trailer winch deep cycle.


(https://i.postimg.cc/gnkHbS9Z/634478-B6-9647-4-ED9-B3-B5-3-A02-FE5-E5-BCC.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gnkHbS9Z)


Notice the asterisk -


(https://i.postimg.cc/Cz1kQRDC/8-F62-F850-E761-435-B-BA46-4-E986-D3-B81-EB.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Cz1kQRDC)

Great point Mac.  For me if I were to switch from my setup I'd need to run 3 separate lithium batteries vs. 1 36v unit. 
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on May 04, 2021, 07:13 PM
Great point Mac.  For me if I were to switch from my setup I'd need to run 3 separate lithium batteries vs. 1 36v unit.

Why's that? Not enough room for one big battery? What size are your batteries now? I have room to do either, obviously prefer one for charging simplicity, just trying to consider what the best course of action is.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on May 04, 2021, 08:59 PM
Why's that? Not enough room for one big battery? What size are your batteries now? I have room to do either, obviously prefer one for charging simplicity, just trying to consider what the best course of action is.

The 36VDC, 200ah, LiFePo2 battery we bought is a lot smaller than 3 series 31's.
It is only 15" long x 13.8" wide x 9.8" high
Also only weighs 150#

The 31's I just bought are 65# each (x3 = 195#)
31's are only 100ah
So you would need 6 of them to eaqual the one I bought.


Additionaslly, the 36V charger is 1/2 the size of both of my 3 bank 12 volt chargers and cost less.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: lowaccord66 on May 08, 2021, 07:31 AM
Why's that? Not enough room for one big battery? What size are your batteries now? I have room to do either, obviously prefer one for charging simplicity, just trying to consider what the best course of action is.

The minnkota charger I have is a 4 bank not sure it will handle a single lithium.  I know it can do 4.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on May 08, 2021, 09:42 AM
The minnkota charger I have is a 4 bank not sure it will handle a single lithium.  I know it can do 4.

Each bank is only 12 volts.
It can charge one battery using only one bank but the battery must be 12 volts.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: swnoel on May 08, 2021, 01:01 PM
I got a really sweet deal.
Now if the battery would only show up.
 8)

Did the banana boat show up yet?  :D
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on May 08, 2021, 02:14 PM
Did the banana boat show up yet?  :D


? ? ? ?
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: lowaccord66 on May 08, 2021, 08:10 PM
Each bank is only 12 volts.
It can charge one battery using only one bank but the battery must be 12 volts.

Ya that. 
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: swnoel on May 09, 2021, 05:44 AM

? ? ? ?

Did you get the battery yet? Just trying to be funny... guess it didn't work.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: SizeMatters on May 09, 2021, 06:37 AM
Did you get the battery yet? Just trying to be funny... guess it didn't work.
It worked. Mac's upset and being coy.....   According to reports the banana boat arrived but the pony express fumbled on the goal line.....  Only in Buffalo.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: SizeMatters on May 09, 2021, 06:42 AM
It worked. Mac's upset and being coy.....   According to reports the banana boat arrived but the pony express fumbled on the goal line.....  Only in Buffalo.
Censors........I originally typed that Mac's pi$$ed but somehow it shows up as upset.  I still think he's Pi$$ed and it's a step up from uspset....lol
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on May 09, 2021, 11:42 AM
Censors........I originally typed that Mac's pi$$ed but somehow it shows up as upset.  I still think he's Pi$$ed and it's a step up from uspset....lol

I'm bent, but cannot do anything further.
The battery is officially lost as I posted in my other thread.
The ship made it to the US and the battery appears to have cleared customs.
It was FedEx that lost it somewhere between California and Buffalo, NY.
The battery guy is building me another one.
It will take him a few weeks.
Then 35+ days to get to the US by boat.
Then FedEx gets another shot at it to get it to my workplace.................or lose it again.
I bought two LA deep cycle series 31's to get by with.
I still have a bit more electrical work to do inside the cuddy that I'll finish up this week.
Then mount the 31's inside along with a 3 bank charger I had laying around to test the Ulterra.
If I get it all done this week, and that ois my target, I'll bring out the boat to the lake here next weekend and give things a trial run.
Lots of things were repaired/changed/installed.
So there is a lot of testing to be done.
Then we fish!
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: swnoel on May 09, 2021, 12:18 PM
I'm bent, but cannot do anything further.
The battery is officially lost as I posted in my other thread.
The ship made it to the US and the battery appears to have cleared customs.
It was FedEx that lost it somewhere between California and Buffalo, NY.
The battery guy is building me another one.
It will take him a few weeks.
Then 35+ days to get to the US by boat.
Then FedEx gets another shot at it to get it to my workplace.................or lose it again.
I bought two LA deep cycle series 31's to get by with.
I still have a bit more electrical work to do inside the cuddy that I'll finish up this week.
Then mount the 31's inside along with a 3 bank charger I had laying around to test the Ulterra.
If I get it all done this week, and that ois my target, I'll bring out the boat to the lake here next weekend and give things a trial run.
Lots of things were repaired/changed/installed.
So there is a lot of testing to be done.
Then we fish!


That sucks! I had no idea it got lost...
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on May 09, 2021, 12:53 PM

That sucks! I had no idea it got lost...

Itís all good
I really didnít understand what you posted.
Now it makes sense.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: SLAYERFISH on May 10, 2021, 12:53 PM
Why not just go to Sams and buy a firkin battery?   Heck of a lot easier???
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on May 10, 2021, 02:11 PM
Why not just go to Sams and buy a firkin battery?   Heck of a lot easier???


Read the thread in the boat section to get your answer.

Also, that's what I did in the meantime - bought three LA deep cycle batteries to get by on for now.

But go read the other thread.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: SLAYERFISH on May 10, 2021, 05:43 PM
Not reading 14 pages lol!  I guess you are replacing 3 batts with 1 lithium?  Would love to do that on my boat 2 batts, but can't stomach that price! :D
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on May 11, 2021, 07:19 AM
Not reading 14 pages lol!  I guess you are replacing 3 batts with 1 lithium?  Would love to do that on my boat 2 batts, but can't stomach that price! :D

The cost is far less with lithium over the long term. And even the short term in my case. In just a year I have basically torched my 3 group 31 batteries. I was getting 12 hours when I first installed them this time last year. Now I get about 5 hours before I have basically drained my batteries. Deep discharging them really trashes them, not an issue with lithium.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: lowaccord66 on May 11, 2021, 07:21 AM
I'm shopping for another boat and wonder how many batteries and how big of a spot lock for this.

https://www.boattrader.com/boat/2006-seaswirl-striper-2901-pilot-7840534/ (https://www.boattrader.com/boat/2006-seaswirl-striper-2901-pilot-7840534/)

Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on May 11, 2021, 07:28 AM
I'm shopping for another boat and wonder how many batteries and how big of a spot lock for this.

https://www.boattrader.com/boat/2006-seaswirl-striper-2901-pilot-7840534/ (https://www.boattrader.com/boat/2006-seaswirl-striper-2901-pilot-7840534/)

Beautiful boat! You might be in Skyhook category with that one!

Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on May 11, 2021, 07:40 AM
I'm shopping for another boat and wonder how many batteries and how big of a spot lock for this.

https://www.boattrader.com/boat/2006-seaswirl-striper-2901-pilot-7840534/ (https://www.boattrader.com/boat/2006-seaswirl-striper-2901-pilot-7840534/)


Look at the Minn Kota 87" Riptide Terrova.
36V, 112# thrust.
It will do the job.

https://minnkotamotors.johnsonoutdoors.com/saltwater-trolling-motors/riptide-terrova (https://minnkotamotors.johnsonoutdoors.com/saltwater-trolling-motors/riptide-terrova)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFY_Q0zGDzo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFY_Q0zGDzo)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdUL_LvGc6s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdUL_LvGc6s)


Also, I would consider 200AH lithium.
Anyone tells you the battery is too expensive, show them how much money you have in the boat and tell them the trolling motor was $3k.
Go big or stay at home.

BTW, nice boat.

 8)
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: mcully on May 11, 2021, 09:26 AM
You'll need to modify the bow rail too but look online for many pics of what people have done and have it still be functional and look good
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on May 11, 2021, 10:40 AM
You'll need to modify the bow rail too but look online for many pics of what people have done and have it still be functional and look good

Or go over and look at my boat thread and see how I modified mine.
Works well.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: lowaccord66 on May 11, 2021, 12:44 PM

Look at the Minn Kota 87" Riptide Terrova.
36V, 112# thrust.
It will do the job.

https://minnkotamotors.johnsonoutdoors.com/saltwater-trolling-motors/riptide-terrova (https://minnkotamotors.johnsonoutdoors.com/saltwater-trolling-motors/riptide-terrova)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFY_Q0zGDzo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFY_Q0zGDzo)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdUL_LvGc6s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdUL_LvGc6s)


Also, I would consider 200AH lithium.
Anyone tells you the battery is too expensive, show them how much money you have in the boat and tell them the trolling motor was $3k.
Go big or stay at home.

BTW, nice boat.

 8)

I have the 36v on my Stratos fish n ski.  It's overpowered but why not.   

It's between this pilot house and some parkers.  The parkers are all single yams though and I want to get offshore. 

I like that the listing I posted has 2 new low hour Suzuki outboards otherwise I'd be uninterested at that price...

I have seen some guys spot locking for blackfish sure beats tossing wreck anchors for 45 minutes and then drifting off the fish!
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on May 11, 2021, 01:47 PM

I have seen some guys spot locking for blackfish sure beats tossing wreck anchors for 45 minutes and then drifting off the fish!



We have the same issue perch fishing in 60-80 FOW.
You throw out 200-250' of anchor rode and swing in a 300-400' circle and don't stay on top of the school.
Also, hauling in the anchor everytime you want to relocate is a royal PITA.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: lowaccord66 on May 11, 2021, 04:29 PM

We have the same issue perch fishing in 60-80 FOW.
You throw out 200-250' of anchor rode and swing in a 300-400' circle and don't stay on top of the school.
Also, hauling in the anchor everytime you want to relocate is a royal PITA.

Madness.  I recall one trip my buddy went to "check" the wreck anchor after hours of slaying.  I think we moved 2ft and could not get on those fish again.  Losing the main anchor sucks too.  Costly. 
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on May 11, 2021, 05:05 PM
Madness.  I recall one trip my buddy went to "check" the wreck anchor after hours of slaying.  I think we moved 2ft and could not get on those fish again.  Losing the main anchor sucks too.  Costly.

Yea, we very rarely if ever loose and anchor out in Lake Erie, but you're right - Madness!
Spot Lock is a game changer.
And the iPilot autopilot and cruise control features are just as awesome.
I will never own a boat without these.
Never!
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: lowaccord66 on May 11, 2021, 08:54 PM
Me neither Mac.  They are absolutely worth the price.  I was using mine yesterday fishing for pike.  Set cruise control to 1 mph and set auto pilot and run up a shoreline.  Doesn't matter what the wind speed is, just keeps trucking along. 

I need to upgrade...Mines and older 2014 without the puck and sometimes it gets a bit wonky.  Also and this bears repeating...don't try to spot lock under bridges....I've had mine go nuts and try to send my boat into pilings....

I have bad luck with anchors...there's one in Sac....a nice one with a long chain under the big bridge...and 2 in long Island sound.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on May 11, 2021, 08:56 PM
 :o
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on May 12, 2021, 07:10 AM
Also and this bears repeating...don't try to spot lock under bridges....I've had mine go nuts and try to send my boat into pilings....

I never thought of that, glad I read this.

By the way Mac, seems Jeff is put off by the whole experience with your special order battery, he has no interest in getting me a 200ah unit, says he's only dealing with the 100ah 36v batteries. I didn't push him too much though, may try to talk him into it.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on May 12, 2021, 07:57 AM
I never thought of that, glad I read this.

By the way Mac, seems Jeff is put off by the whole experience with your special order battery, he has no interest in getting me a 200ah unit, says he's only dealing with the 100ah 36v batteries. I didn't push him too much though, may try to talk him into it.

He has not built anything yet and wants to build a small one for himself fist.
This way, he blows up his own place or icehut.
 :rotflol: :rotflol: :rotflol:

I have spoken to him about building a 36/100 for me for Florida.
But I won't need it for over a year.

Keep talking with him.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: lowaccord66 on May 12, 2021, 08:25 AM
I'm waiting to see how you do Mac.  I like being lighter.  I have 3 group 27 agms and a 31 for cranking.  That's a ton of weight.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on May 12, 2021, 09:23 AM
He has not built anything yet and wants to build a small one for himself fist.
This way, he blows up his own place or icehut.
 :rotflol: :rotflol: :rotflol:

I have spoken to him about building a 36/100 for me for Florida.
But I won't need it for over a year.

Keep talking with him.

36/100 He can get me within a few weeks. I just didn't think I'd need to buy it until next year earliest, but wet cells are obviously useless for how I use them.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on May 16, 2021, 12:17 PM
Ran the 31ís yesterday.
100ah LE deep cycle batteries.
The battery power indicator on the ipilot remote control said I used about 1/3 of the batteries after about 4.5 hrs of trolling at a setting of 3.5-4.5 out of 10.
I tried the autopilot feature to make sure that it worked properly and it does.
But I didnít use the autopilot so I could save on the batteries.
I was happy to see the results and also know that meter on the remote isnít exactly accurate but it did indicate I had power left and the LE batteries will suffice for temporary use until I get the LiFePo2 battery.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on May 17, 2021, 10:09 AM
Ran the 31ís yesterday.
100ah LE deep cycle batteries.
The battery power indicator on the ipilot remote control said I used about 1/3 of the batteries after about 4.5 hrs of trolling at a setting of 3.5-4.5 out of 10.
I tried the autopilot feature to make sure that it worked properly and it does.
But I didnít use the autopilot so I could save on the batteries.
I was happy to see the results and also know that meter on the remote isnít exactly accurate but it did indicate I had power left and the LE batteries will suffice for temporary use until I get the LiFePo2 battery.

That battery meter on the remote seems super inaccurate. Although I have a different remote than yours, I believe it's probably the same battery meter more or less.

I'm pretty sure I have smoked my 3 batteries in just a year. I was spot locked for like 3 hours yesterday in the ocean with almost no wind and I heard the motor make a beep I never heard before and it shut off the prop and autopilot, although it was still shown engaged on the remote and my Helix. I tired to stow it right away, but it failed to stow. The motor is supposed to stop working and still have enough power to stow, but it didn't turn the head to seat in the motor saddle. After waiting about 5 minutes it did stow with my help turning the big, heavy motor.

I'm going to pick up a load testing meter on my way home and see what's happening. With my simple volt meter it was showing good voltage after I got home before I plugged the boat in. I think the batteries have just gotten beat on so bad, they are weak. They charge quicker than they used to as well... not a good sign. I'm bummed out about it because lithium isn't in the budget right now, so I may be buying 3 more wet cells this week.  >:(

So moral of the story Mac, don't run the motor for 10 hours all summer long and not expect the batteries to get trashed!
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: swnoel on May 17, 2021, 12:49 PM
That battery meter on the remote seems super inaccurate. Although I have a different remote than yours, I believe it's probably the same battery meter more or less.

I'm pretty sure I have smoked my 3 batteries in just a year. I was spot locked for like 3 hours yesterday in the ocean with almost no wind and I heard the motor make a beep I never heard before and it shut off the prop and autopilot, although it was still shown engaged on the remote and my Helix. I tired to stow it right away, but it failed to stow. The motor is supposed to stop working and still have enough power to stow, but it didn't turn the head to seat in the motor saddle. After waiting about 5 minutes it did stow with my help turning the big, heavy motor.

I'm going to pick up a load testing meter on my way home and see what's happening. With my simple volt meter it was showing good voltage after I got home before I plugged the boat in. I think the batteries have just gotten beat on so bad, they are weak. They charge quicker than they used to as well... not a good sign. I'm bummed out about it because lithium isn't in the budget right now, so I may be buying 3 more wet cells this week.  >:(

So moral of the story Mac, don't run the motor for 10 hours all summer long and not expect the batteries to get trashed!


Aren't they under warranty?
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on May 17, 2021, 01:09 PM

Aren't they under warranty?

Interstate covers marine deep cycles for a year and then nothing. I bought all three of these 13 months ago >:(
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: lowaccord66 on May 17, 2021, 08:48 PM
Jethro from my experience, you likely have a bad ground.  Do you have a breaker on your power?  You should for these for several reasons.  Are you using a barrel connector to connect/ disconnect power to the unit? 

Also Jethro I used to run the cheapest deep cycles ever with a 12v 55lb thrust unit.  2 group 34's, rv batteries from tractor supply. Would spot lock for 8-10 hours in total per day and never killed the batteries.  I'm not using expensive agm's now and have literally been spot locked for more than 6 hours on a single reef.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: swnoel on May 18, 2021, 07:42 AM
Interstate covers marine deep cycles for a year and then nothing. I bought all three of these 13 months ago >:(

That sucks!! I'd still try and get them to cover it... you have nothing to lose!
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on May 18, 2021, 08:14 AM
Jethro from my experience, you likely have a bad ground.  Do you have a breaker on your power?  You should for these for several reasons.  Are you using a barrel connector to connect/ disconnect power to the unit? 

Also Jethro I used to run the cheapest deep cycles ever with a 12v 55lb thrust unit.  2 group 34's, rv batteries from tractor supply. Would spot lock for 8-10 hours in total per day and never killed the batteries.  I'm not using expensive agm's now and have literally been spot locked for more than 6 hours on a single reef.

I have a 60amp breaker and the motor is all hard wired except for the actual plug for the motor which is a brand new Marinco 70 amp plug specifically for 36v motors. When I installed all the batteries I cleaned the contacts and wires so good I could see my reflection in them. There aren't any barrel connectors or crimped connectors in the system at all. I also have 6ga wire coming from the 3 batteries directly into the plug which is due to the 10 foot run on either side of the series. I can't see how I have a bad ground but it's possible. Keep in mind that the performance dropped significantly last year, and the whole system has been reinstalled since then because my motor and the batteries came inside the house over the winter.

Last year I was able to autopilot troll for 10 hours easy. Even once when I was remote camping I did exactly that and still trolled the following morning for about 4 hours. But doing the math from MinnKota my motor probably draws 20 amps an hour on average doing that. So theoretically it's only good for 5 hours with my 105ah batteries. I believe I have deep discharged my batteries WAY too much and cooked them, but maybe I am wrong. I checked all the water levels, that is fine. When I got back from haddock fishing the other day where the Ulterra shut off presumably due to low voltage and then failed to stow, I plugged in my 3 bank MinnKota Digital charger and it went from fully discharged batteries to full charge in about 2 hours. That doesn't seem right. It also seems that the battery gauge built into the MinnKota GAINS power as I use it. So I'll start the day with a fully charged bank of batteries (supposedly) and the MinnKota says it's at 50%. An actual voltmeter shows 12.76 volts on all my batteries. Then as I use the motor, 3 hours later it showed 75% on the MinnKota gauge. Then an hour later it died and wouldn't stow. I wish I brought my voltmeter on the boat with me, but when I got home 3 hours later the batteries were reading 12.3 volts. The biggest thing that gets me thinking I torched the batteries is that the motor is supposed to shut down before the voltage gets too low to stow the motor.

Tonight I am going to do the horrible task of pulling all the batteries out of the boat. I'll bring them to Interstate in Nashua and have them check them.

Other than deep discharging the batteries I took super good care of them. They came inside over the winter and were on battery tenders. Last year I always charged them as soon as I got the boat back home.

That sucks!! I'd still try and get them to cover it... you have nothing to lose!

Oh yes, I'm going to do my best. This cost me $530 just last year and I bought them at the Interstate Factory Store:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Sports/Boats/i-SMmZS2p/0/6ca4be42/M/20200327_173841-M.jpg)
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on May 18, 2021, 08:57 AM
Geoff - LiFePo2!!!

Quit BSín around.   8)

Yea, LA batteries should never be drawn down past 50% or they degrade.  Each time you do this.  But we all do this!!

The LiFePo2 batteries can be drawn down.  And if you donít draw them down, the allowable recharge cycles increase.  This is why I decided on 200ah instead of 100ah. 
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on May 18, 2021, 09:12 AM
Geoff - LiFePo2!!!

Quit BSín around.   8)

Yea, LA batteries should never be drawn down past 50% or they degrade.  Each time you do this.  But we all do this!!

The LiFePo2 batteries can be drawn down.  And if you donít draw them down, the allowable recharge cycles increase.  This is why I decided on 200ah instead of 100ah.

I really just thought that deep discharging would just lessen my total recharge cycles rather than capacity. That I can live with- sorta. But I think it's killed the capacity, bad. I don't know yet.

Believe me! I am doing LiFePo2 ASAP!! But it's not in the budget for 2021 for $2,100.00 to do the 100ah option, let alone the $3800 or whatever it is for the 200ah option.

Hoping that Interstate takes pity on me and replaces the batteries. If not I will buy 3 of the cheapest group 31's I can find for the remainder of this year and next season I will have a 200ah lithium- as long as your experience goes well, Mac!
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on May 18, 2021, 09:27 AM
SamísClub
I bought the Duracell 31ís for $99 each

And my 200ah LiFePo2 was $1600 plus $400 for shipping.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on May 18, 2021, 11:25 AM
SamísClub
I bought the Duracell 31ís for $99 each

And my 200ah LiFePo2 was $1600 plus $400 for shipping.

Oh wow, I thought the 200ah would be way more expensive. I just emailed Jeff again. If it's $2k to get it to me, I may go that route.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on May 18, 2021, 02:57 PM
Oh wow, I thought the 200ah would be way more expensive. I just emailed Jeff again. If it's $2k to get it to me, I may go that route.


Here is where I bought it -

https://www.lithium-battery-factory.com/product/36v-200ah-lithium-rv-batteries/#body_sele (https://www.lithium-battery-factory.com/product/36v-200ah-lithium-rv-batteries/#body_sele)


Email Carl Wu @ [email protected]

Carl is super!
Very highly regarded by others on the lithium battery boards.
He is making it right for me, even though FedEx is only going to reimburse them $100 for the lost battery.
His English is great, at least his written English.
Very easy to understand and he is very good technically.
He can answer your questions.
Send him an email and good luck.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: lowaccord66 on May 18, 2021, 06:00 PM
Agm for me.  They work.  They can deep discharge and while I could afford the lithium I am uninterested in the pricing.  Not to mention if you accidently puncture one of those lithium batteries in any manner your rig goes up in flames.  Low chance but if it happens that's what you can expect...

Jethro if you go Mac's route I want to hear all about it...and the challenges.  God bless you Mac, back yard battery builders...made me laugh.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on May 18, 2021, 07:55 PM
Agm for me.  They work.  They can deep discharge and while I could afford the lithium I am uninterested in the pricing.  Not to mention if you accidently puncture one of those lithium batteries in any manner your rig goes up in flames.  Low chance but if it happens that's what you can expect...

Jethro if you go Mac's route I want to hear all about it...and the challenges.  God bless you Mac, back yard battery builders...made me laugh.

Nope!
AGM are LA batteries.
Discharge below 50% and they go to nuts.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: jeffmac85 on May 19, 2021, 05:37 AM
Just an FYI, 100ah versions in both 12V and 36V (I would think 24V also but I didn't check) are available through amazon for roughly $1400-$1500 depending on 1 36V vs 3 12V and the brand you buy.  Most all have free shipping and of course are purchase protected through Amazon.  These batteries are definitely coming from China, but for those of you dead set on an American based company you may be surprised to find the cells they are using are from China or some other Asian country or India.  All of these lithium ion cells are being produced over there due to the labor laws and environmental laws being almost non existent.  The cost to manufacture these in the US due to recycling issues is astronomical.  So all of these American companies (Dakota lithium, battle born etc) are all using foreign made cells, just assembling and top/bottom balancing and building the battery here in the US.  And honestly anyone with half a brain can do all that, I've looked into it.  However even building it myself I was only looking at saving 25-30% over Carl's cost so its almost not worth it, or at least it wouldn't have been if fedex hadn't dropped the ball.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on May 19, 2021, 07:20 AM
Mac, the research I've done shows AGM is slightly more resistant to deep discharge, you can discharge to 20% of capacity rather than 50% of capacity without damaging them. May fall under the "I read it on the the internet so it must be true" category though.

All my batteries are in the back of the truck today, I'll bring them to Interstate this afternoon and see what they say.

Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: swnoel on May 19, 2021, 07:40 AM
Mac, the research I've done shows AGM is slightly more resistant to deep discharge, you can discharge to 20% of capacity rather than 50% of capacity without damaging them. May fall under the "I read it on the the internet so it must be true" category though.

All my batteries are in the back of the truck today, I'll bring them to Interstate this afternoon and see what they say.

Are those AGM batteries? Something isn't right. I have an Interstate regular deep cycle battery in my dump trailer and plugged in the onboard trickle charger for 24 hours and was surprised even though it showed a full charge, it was only 47% on my portable charger. I pulled the battery and charged it on a real charger. How long was it on the Minn Kota charger?
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: lowaccord66 on May 19, 2021, 08:41 AM
Nope!
AGM are LA batteries.
Discharge below 50% and they go to nuts.

Has not been my experience at all.  Keep in mind all I do is spot lock for 8-12 hours a trip....over and over and over again.  Ive even discharged to nearly zero getting my boat back to the launch with the troller when the main died.  No issues and these are cheap cabelas agm's.   

Now I've been watching the guys on tiny boat Nation play with electric only boats...check it out Mac...they are using very specific battery setups to run a 40hp electric outboard and how they are doing it should be noted.  They are not using mail order batteries haha...
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on May 19, 2021, 09:50 AM
Are those AGM batteries? Something isn't right. I have an Interstate regular deep cycle battery in my dump trailer and plugged in the onboard trickle charger for 24 hours and was surprised even though it showed a full charge, it was only 47% on my portable charger. I pulled the battery and charged it on a real charger. How long was it on the Minn Kota charger?

Mine are standard wet cell batteries. I always plug in the boat right when I get home and leave it overnight. This is using Minn Kotas 3 bank Precision Digital MK330PC charger, I have been told it's a good one but maybe it's got an issue.

Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: lowaccord66 on May 19, 2021, 11:46 AM
Here you go Jethro...hard core agm batteries with better amp hours than the noise Mac is pushing...designed to run electric outboards...

https://www.elcomotoryachts.com/product-category/accessories/batteries/ (https://www.elcomotoryachts.com/product-category/accessories/batteries/)

I may actually upgrade!  36v with over 600 amp hours is wickedly impressive.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: swnoel on May 19, 2021, 11:53 AM
Mine are standard wet cell batteries. I always plug in the boat right when I get home and leave it overnight. This is using Minn Kotas 3 bank Precision Digital MK330PC charger, I have been told it's a good one but maybe it's got an issue.


I have a Schummacher charger that when connected tells me what the battery charge is. I also have that same Minn Kota charger ... I believe I read somewhere it takes more than overnight to fully charge a discharged 100 ah battery. I don't believe your batteries were fully charged.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on May 19, 2021, 12:28 PM

I have a Schummacher charger that when connected tells me what the battery charge is. I also have that same Minn Kota charger ... I believe I read somewhere it takes more than overnight to fully charge a discharged 100 ah battery. I don't believe your batteries were fully charged.

Well certainly possible but it would be strange. Everything worked quite well with how I used it last year, the whole year, then in Sept I started noticing a lot less run time.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on May 19, 2021, 12:37 PM
Here you go Jethro...hard core agm batteries with better amp hours than the noise Mac is pushing...designed to run electric outboards...

https://www.elcomotoryachts.com/product-category/accessories/batteries/ (https://www.elcomotoryachts.com/product-category/accessories/batteries/)

I may actually upgrade!  36v with over 600 amp hours is wickedly impressive.

36v and 600amp hours? Now that's what I'm talking about! I don't see that option on the site though? What I see there it would take 9 of the 220ah batteries for me to get that kind of capacity. Maybe they make something I don't see here?
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on May 19, 2021, 04:06 PM
https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/tracker-marine-lithium-super-high-output-lithium-deep-cycle-marine-battery (https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/tracker-marine-lithium-super-high-output-lithium-deep-cycle-marine-battery)


Series 31's at Cabelas/BassPro
100AH
$900 each x 3 = $2700 plus tax and shippng
Hoiwever, pretty quick delivery
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: lowaccord66 on May 19, 2021, 08:25 PM
My bad Mac I am actually dyslexic and transposed the numbers on the 120ah unit....
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on May 19, 2021, 08:36 PM
Itís all good.
I coulda probably been fine with 100-120ah, but I had the cash and didnít want to take any chances.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: lowaccord66 on May 19, 2021, 08:52 PM
And that's 'merica.  You tempt me with those bass pro units.  However I can't see myself spending that on a boat I paid 9k for.  Maybe the next one.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on May 19, 2021, 09:19 PM
Buy them, use them, then move themÖÖÖÖ.to the next boatÖÖ.then to the nextÖÖÖand so on.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on May 20, 2021, 08:56 AM
Well, my batteries are indeed torched, they fail load testing and they are out of warranty. Awesome.

Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: lowaccord66 on May 20, 2021, 09:37 AM
Well, my batteries are indeed torched, they fail load testing and they are out of warranty. Awesome.

That sucks sorry to read.  However much better than the motor being spent.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on May 20, 2021, 09:47 AM
That sucks sorry to read.  However much better than the motor being spent.

This is true. It's 100% my fault though. I just can't expect to get 12+ hours out of it.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: lowaccord66 on May 20, 2021, 12:18 PM
We've all been there!
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on May 21, 2021, 10:35 AM
Hey Mac, don't let that Ulterra contact the ground when the power is on and spin the head! $3000 motor crippled by a $2.31 gear.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Sports/Boats/i-BTCGQfd/0/0b10d484/L/20210520_184359-L.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Sports/Boats/i-jM8sVc3/0/3e67a1ee/L/20210520_184418-L.jpg)
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on May 21, 2021, 11:37 AM
yours?
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on May 21, 2021, 11:39 AM
This is true. It's 100% my fault though. I just can't expect to get 12+ hours out of it.


That is why we decided on the 200ah unit.
We don't typically fish for more than 6-7 hrs, but occasionally we do.
Always better to have more than youy need than not enough.
Also, even though the lithium batteries can be drawn down low and rechagrged, not drawing them down increases the number of charges they can take over time extendintg thier life.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on May 21, 2021, 12:18 PM
yours?

Unfortunately. Fixed now.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: lowaccord66 on May 21, 2021, 12:26 PM
Unfortunately. Fixed now.

Learn something new every day!
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Mac Attack on May 21, 2021, 04:32 PM
Unfortunately. Fixed now.

Looked like a relatively easy fix - thank god.  And low cost.
Still probably suked.
Live and learn.
What doesnít kill youÖÖÖ.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: taxid on May 23, 2021, 05:50 AM
New way to produce lithium batteries?

A new form of carbon opens door to nanosized wires
New type of atomically thin carbon material


"This novel carbon network may also serve as a superior anode material in lithium-ion batteries, with a larger lithium storage capacity compared to that of the current graphene-based materials."

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/05/210520145301.htm

Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: rgfixit on May 23, 2021, 02:51 PM
Sodium will replace lithium in the future. Most of the current research is driven by the automotive and energy industries. Fossil fuels need to go away for our planet to survive.

Rg
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: taxid on May 23, 2021, 06:08 PM
Sodium will replace lithium in the future. Most of the current research is driven by the automotive and energy industries. Fossil fuels need to go away for our planet to survive.

Rg

One thing for sure they will go away one way or another. There is a finite supply.

Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: lowaccord66 on May 24, 2021, 07:17 AM
Unfortunately. Fixed now.

Glad to hear it!  Did you source parts from Minnkota directly?
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: Jethro on May 24, 2021, 07:43 AM
Looked like a relatively easy fix - thank god.  And low cost.
Still probably suked.
Live and learn.
What doesnít kill youÖÖÖ.

It was "fairly" cheap... Since I was worried I wouldn't get the parts in short order I basically bought every gear in the steering module which cost about $35. And yes the steering housing was tricky to get back together. Everything fits in there "just so".

Glad to hear it!  Did you source parts from Minnkota directly?

I did, yes, and it's good to know that Minn Kota ships parts pretty quick. I think I had them in less than a week.
Title: Re: Lithium 100 ah battery
Post by: lowaccord66 on May 25, 2021, 07:12 AM
The good news (if there is any) is you seem to know how to fix that unit well.  That alone is worth it's weight in gold.