Bonds...Love Him or Hate Him

[Thestanimal]

show me a picture of anyone at 20 then at 40 in professional sports? thats the dumbest argument you have made so far, everyone bulks up with age

People bulk up as a result of adipose tissue gain and not 20lbs of lean mass gains in 1 year!  Bonds arrived 20lbs heavier in spring training in 1999 and had reduced bodyfat AT AGE 35!!


look at bobby's stats, and tell me barry didnt inherite these genes and lets not forget who his godfather is

Willie Mays was not related by blood.  He was a friend of Bobby's.  Bobby Bonds at age 35 hit .215 and 6 HR and had his most unproductive year in his declining career. He was out of baseball at the end of the season.

 How do you believe Barry achieved his numbers?  How do you explain the huge increase in the distance of his Homeruns at ages 35-39?  How do you explain his relationship with Anderson and BALCO?

Guilty as charged.  Proof for profit...you read newspapers right?

[archbishop]

i never said barry and mays were related by blood, but that is another one of his huge influences on his way to becoming one of the best hitters of all time along with his father who was a great batter, alot of influence and practice went into barry getting that swing also, back at the time those players played, age 35 was a dinosaur, nowadays people play until almost 50, and play pretty decently, obviously not on the defensive level of a 25-30 year old, but can still hit the ball :tipup:with todays training and health care, athletes arent peaking until 35, then they were retiring at 35

newspapers arent based on whatever they want, they have to report the truth, even when they print about subjects like bonds its listed as allegations, newspapers dont report on santa and the tooth fairy

[OneManArmy]

with todays training and health care, athletes arent peaking until 35, then they were retiring at 35

Athlete's peak at 35???  You gotta be kidding everyone if you believe that?  The only was they peak is if they are taking steriods.  Name 5 hitters that peaked at the age of 35 and i'll show you 5 hitters on the Juice.  Bonds is guilty and if you don't believe that you probably think OJ was innocent too! 

[archbishop]

lol, i was wondering where you went

i dont think bonds is innocent, im just not willing to convict him without proof other than a book, conte? (spelling) was around alot of other athletes a swell that re fine, its just coming down on bonds because he was coming on the record or ruth, i think all athletes use substances, just not illegal ones. how many times are they going to indite him without a conviction. no matter what there is going to be an asterick next to his name, you cannot deny he is still nailing them out i agree with some of the "experts" ruth may have been clean, but so were the pitchers, bonds may have been dirty, but so were majority of the pitchers

GO O.J. honestly i think oj was innocent, i think jason did it, i think oj knew, but i think jason did the actual killing

[archbishop]

Did he have OJ's shoes on?   I think Bonds did the killings. He was getting the juice from the juice and Oj shut him off.

Bonds is a low life cheater.. IMO

hell with it, lets blame bucky for the killings and holding bonds down and inserting the needle

like i said, i dislike bonds, i just find something fishy about the whole thing they had hard proof on everyone else, but not bonds? im sure he took suplements, i think every sports player does, heck i take my vitamins, but was he trying to walk a line? did he cross it? or is he just a victim of closing on ruth i think if bonds was a happy fun guy that was fan friendly, he probably wouldnt even be involved in this if he is found guilty, the should take away his homeruns, or at least average him out to what he should have maybe not even that, maguire kept his number heck if you want to bring the law into it, ruth wouldnt even play by todays standards, not just about the weight, but his off field actions would have him locked up today

although i would like to know the real number if they played on equal fields, i think i heard ruth would have like 805 or so in todays parks in the shape he was in, can you imagine if he played today

[Thestanimal]

Arch I'm glad your finally coming around.  Don't know if you read (or interested in reading) the excerpt from the book in SI, but here is the link.  Good debate either way.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/magazine/03/06/growth0313/

[archbishop]

that pic is funny

[archbishop]

Here's who they (USADA, IRS, feds) have actual records of athlete's taking illegal performance enhancing drugs:

1.  Both Giambi brothers (look at the dramatic decrease in size once Jason got off...BTW your fooling yourself if you think he isn't still on them).
2.  Bonds (obviosuly)
3.  Benito Santiago (catcher-SF)
4.  Gary Sheffield (who even admitted taking supplements from BALCO labs, but claimed he didn't know what they were)
5.  Bobby Estella
6.  Alex Rios
7.  Bill Romanoski
8.  Tim Montgomery (sprinter)
9.  Marion Jones

There is no "speculation"  There is too much factual information in the book that goes beyond the sealed grand jury testimony tha indicts all of these athletes.  A very revealing book and I highly recommend it to any sports fan. 

gotta take marion jones off the list, B sample was clean as a whistle

[Thestanimal]

That was the latest event-

She's clean now. Good for her, I guess.

Yet, you have every right to doubt the prime of her gold-medal winning career, when her husband (Hunter), boyfriend (Tim Montgomery) and coach (Trevor Graham) were implicated in major drug scandals, she was something more than an innocent bystander. Her life has been so intertwined with drug cheats, with dealers, that it's impossible to ever believe she was pure. That's just a fact. It is ridiculous to suggest that there's any test in 2006 that's going to exonerate Marion Jones' legacy. Truth be told, that test doesn't exist in the real world. You refuse to believe Hunter and Conte when they detail her alleged drug use? When they give times and places and exact details, when the documentation was all over BALCO files? Come on.

Who else do you think would have firsthand, eyewitness accounts of her alleged usage?

Mister Rogers?

Captain Kangaroo?

[archbishop]

lol, i just wonder why they only bring up peopleon the verge of history or breaking records etc... for all these scandals, do these trainers only have 2 athletes? no but all you hear about is the steroids used by the great ones, its all a shame in my eyes, bring out all the use, the message is that you can use steroids until you get near a record, or if you get near a record we are going to slam you for steroids all they need to do is leak a hint of steroid use and your guilty before your even tested, has bonds tested positive? as bad as MLB wants to nail him before he gets the record, you would think they would release dirt from his past, yet even the mighty MLB cant come up with anything, 3 inditments, nothing, a book listing proof, lists how they know on everyone but bonds? congressional hearings nailed everyone but bonds? man he is either the most powerful man on earth or maybe just maybe, he is innocent

[Thestanimal]

man he is either the most powerful man on earth or maybe just maybe, he is innocent

Nope-it's because there is a seperate investigation that is ongoing with Bonds.  He is being investigated for Tax fraud and perjury charges related to the Balco case drug scandal.  They didn't bring him into the hearing because the government didn't want the hearings to interfere with their case.

They have everyhting they need on bonds-sworn testimoney from athlete's, trainer, Conte, detailed records, times, places, drugs used, etc.  It's all going to come out.  The liklihood of them actually going to be able to do something about for the records...probably minimal.  Unfortunate that his name is going down and diminishing the acomplishments of Aaron, Ruth, Marris, etc.  The only ray of shining hope is the fact that Howard from the Phillies has a legitimate shot at beating 62 if he stays hot.

 just wonder why they only bring up peopleon the verge of history or breaking records etc.  bring out all the use

Did you read today that Stephan Bonner-(the UFC finalist and fighter who just competed in the UFC in a rematch with Forest Griffin) just tested positive for steriods following his fight?  Shame...they even catch the little guys.

MLB, NFL, and other sports do a decent job of exposing drug cheats...you just don't always remember the names.  Remember all the guys from the Carolina Panthers, Rafeal Betancourt (indians closer), and numerous Minor league baseball players. 

 The final problem is that the drug-makers seem to stay well ahead of those in charge of testing. The designer steroid, THG, allegedly distributed by the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative, was undetectable until track coach Trevor Graham submitted a syringe of it to American drug-testing authorities.

Without the syringe, we wouldn't have known about THG.  It never would have been found out had somebody not delivered the product.  The fact it happened with one (synthetic steroid that was previously undetectable) indicates that there are others. Whether it's one, 10 or 20, no one knows. 

I will agree with you that Bonds attracts a lot of attention because 1) he has always been a dick to the media, teammates, and fans and now the media wants their revenge and 2) he is about to break the both of the most coveted records in baseball.  But I have no sympathy for him.


 
 

[archbishop]

bonds wasnt being investigated for tax fraud until after his first indictment, and that case is weaker than his steroid case, its a minor charge that they got him with, and just a fine, but it let them get into his life further, and still turned up nothing in the second indictment, and now they are trying as third, 3 indictments and a tax fraud charge and all he gets is a fine, it wasn't even his problem with the fraud, it was an accounting error

[Thestanimal]

Alright, I need to move on with my life.   Your opinion is that Bonds is clean, the mountains of evidence against him are either made up or wrong, and the public/ media/ government is just picking on him-that's fine.  Believe what you want despite all the evidence against and your willingness to accept it. I will not continue to try to debate the topic with.   The title of the thread is love him or hate him...you obviously love him. 

[archbishop]

Alright, I need to move on with my life.   Your opinion is that Bonds is clean, the mountains of evidence against him are either made up or wrong, and the public/ media/ government is just picking on him-that's fine.  Believe what you want despite all the evidence against and your willingness to accept it. I will not continue to try to debate the topic with.   The title of the thread is love him or hate him...you obviously love him. 

i dont love him, there is no evidence against him other than hear say 3 inditments and a congressional hearing had him come up clean? where is the evidence? oh the book i read a book about this guy named santa clause from the north pole, he brings present to kids, must be true it was in a book. a convicted felon is the only source of evidence, if you choose to believe that cool, but i played sports all my life up through college, and not a little school, i seen the best and worst of drugs, i personally am one of .5% of the population allergic to steroids, sucks for a medical standpoint, almost all meds have some for of steroid in them but trust me, its not to hard to test for steroids, this guy keeps coming up clean i truley dislike bonds but my personal opinions dont matter in his steroid case, people trained to invesyigate and convict people for this crap have came up empty time after time, who are people like us to convict him? everyone is free to there opinion, but without conviction, thats all it is opinion

[pinche]

Did he have OJ's shoes on?   I think Bonds did the killings. He was getting the juice from the juice and Oj shut him off.

Bonds is a low life cheater.. IMO