More bad news for the Adirondacks!

[slipbob]

Here we go again with more of the problems we face from  outdated coalfired power plants and our federal governments continued failure to beef up and enforce stricter pollution controls.  If this acid rain crap isn't curbed quick we're gonna lose a lot more than some tourist dollars here in upstate NY.  This was in our local paper today.
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=266082&category=REGION&BCCode=HOME&newsdate=7/14/2004

The big problem is our lamo EPA.  It stands for energy protection agency instead of environmental protection agency.  They are protecting the energy industry once again because of these huge campaign contributions instead of protecting our environment and we the sportspeople who use it's resources.  I want clean water and clean fish to eat from those waters.  Is that so difficult for our government to understand?  Thankyou to people like Eliott Spitzer who have filed suits to try to protect our air from the weak emission standards our federal government allows.  The sad part is the pollution control technologies are readily available and would help significantly.  We just don't have a government agency with enough ba#@s to do anything about it.  As fishermen, hunters, and trappers we all have the biggest stake in the environmental assaults that are going on now including the new rule allowing roads into wilderness areas that the so called "EPA" just announced.  Formerly a no road rule has turned into another handout to the timber industry.  Just keep the bucks coming in at campaign time boys and we'll get you what you want.  It's sad.

[camo_fish]

That is sad, most politicians only really care that it is creating jobs, we need stiffer laws to protect our waterways and forests. Do you know that lake are added to the limit meal list, or do we have to wait for the next DEC fishing rules and regs. to indicate them.

[camo_fish]

You would think so, about the clean water, but more and more acid rain is killing our Adirondack waterways. They keep stocking our waters but can only C&R, that is crazy. I know what you mean about our future generations, to learn that it is ok to eat what you catch. It's hard to teach our kids that we can't eat the fish because the water is polluted, and then they ask but we swim in the water, will it hurt us. and so on.

[jf5]

Slipbob,

I agree with you on these issues fully. Unfortunatly, big money=power, and thats what keeps industry pushing crap into out air. Think about these issues when you vote in November.

But one side note, many, many hunters OPPOSE the roadless wilderness and non-logging practices. This has been particularly a thorny issue in Vermont in the Green Mtn National Forest lands. Many feel that they are entitled access to these areas via a road, and want logging activity to allow edge habitat for deer.

This is just a comment, not my viewpoint.   

[USMC130FE]

Great news...Thanks.

And the DEC is worried about me using a boat in the reservoirs for fear of polluting it.  I wonder how the 9+ million people in New York City that drink the water that originates in the Adirondacks would like to only drink 2 glasses of water a month.  They have to be crazy, or maybe I'm stupid to think that the filtering process can remove all the mercury from the water.

Maybe one of our Phyisist can explain this for me.  Can they filter out all of it???

Steve

[USMC130FE]

Thanks for the info.  On the no road rule, I don't completely agree with it because I feel if we do a controlled cutting and harvest of timber it would help provide habitat for a lot of species.  The logging roads would provide access to hikers, snowmobiler, atv'rs, hunters , and fisherman.  It could open up a lot of areas that are "controlled" by individuals that buy land surounding a mountain and prohibit access to the high grounds.  If it is managed correctly, everyone can win!!

Steve

[Chucker]

Steve the NYC supply is purely Catskill oriented but the resevoirs there have some mercuy warnings too. 

Actually, there are quite a few NYC reservoirs in Putnam and Westchester Counties, too.

[jf5]

On the no road rule, I don't completely agree with it because I feel if we do a controlled cutting and harvest of timber it would help provide habitat for a lot of species.  The logging roads would provide access to hikers, snowmobiler, atv'rs, hunters , and fisherman.  It could open up a lot of areas that are "controlled" by individuals that buy land surounding a mountain and prohibit access to the high grounds.  If it is managed correctly, everyone can win!!

Steve

Steve, I agree with you on the idea of controlled logging.  I also agree with allowing acceess, but to a point. Full road access is not a win-win for eveyone. Some people like to hunt deep in the forests for a reason. And nothng is more disheartening than hiking 1.5 miles to your deer stand only to have folks screaming by on ATV's, well off trail. There are plenty of other places for them to do such activities.

I have hunted large areas of land in Montana that where a mix of USF&W lands and paper company lands. Up until the early 90's, many folks drove trucks and ATV's all over the logging roads shooting game out the windows, dumping trash, etc.  Later they gated many of the roads and forbid road traffic, allowing just enough for guys to get some decent access and a place to park their vehicles.  Per the local guides, the game, particularly the elk, have rebounded nicely, and there is not more finding a dead washing machine on the side of a hill.

As with the case with the GMNF, there are plenty of places to park and access the park. I don't think its all that much a shame for them to get out and hike. Some guys just want to drive to the top of the mountain.

[lumberjohn]

I'm not a big fan of mixing politics with my fishing forums. That's best left to the yahoo forums. But since you brought it up......First I agree that there should be stricter controls on what is spewing out of primarily midwestern coal fired plants and affecting our NY Adirondack lakes. I believe the main problem is sulpher and nitrogen dioxides that form acid rain which dissolves the naturally occuring mercury compounds in the soils that is causing the problem. I'm sure there are some heavy metals that come out as well and contribute to the problem. It would seem we as a country could do a better job in controlling this, and it will cost us, but it is a price we should pay. As dependent on oil as we are from outside the US we cannot afford to discontinue burning coal.

As far as the whole roadless issue that is something I am well versed in and know much about. I've spent my career in the forest products business. I work for a Canadian lumber company selling their wood to US customers from my 800# on Owasco Lake. First of all the the US government owns and manages about 700 million acres of federal lands. Of This total 105 million acres are designated fedraly managed wilderness areas.

National forests encompass 191 million acres of land, which is an area equivalent to the size of Texas. Managed by the US Forest Service.
262 million acres managed by the Bureau of Land Management
96 million acres managed by the Fish and Wildlife Service (Iroquois & Montezuma for example)
84.4 million acres managed by the National Park Service
8.7 million acres managed by the Bureau of Reclamation
55.7 million acres managed by the Bureau of Indian Affairs

The roadless area deals strictly with the national forests. Congress established the Forest Service in 1905 to provide quality water and timber for the Nation's benefit. Over the years, the public has expanded the list of what they want from national forests and grasslands. Congress responded by directing the Forest Service to manage national forests for additional multiple uses and benefits and for the sustained yield of renewable resources such as water, forage, wildlife, wood, and recreation. Multiple use means managing resources under the best combination of uses to benefit the American people while ensuring the productivity of the land and protecting the quality of the environment. What Clinton did during his administration was to effectively turn 1/3 of the US Forest Service lands, lands that Congress had originally set up to be used for multiiple use, including timber harvesting, into national parks by implementing the roadless area policy. He did this by presidential decree, not by passing legislation through Congress. This effectively made these lands off limits to logging by virtue of not allowing roads to be built into them. What had been land set aside by Congress to supply timber and other multiple uses to the country effectively became wilderness areas. Needless to say the state governments and people residing in states like Idaho, Montana, Washington, Oregon, and S.Dakota, etc were pretty steamed about this. The effect? Thousands of people whose liveliehoods were dependent on the timber industry out west were out of work. (there is no Intel or Cisco's in these areas to take up the slack.) Mills closed. Our nation became more dependent upon imports from Canada and third world countries. We presently import 40% of our lumber needs, 1/3 from Canada. We don't have to. Prices of lumber and plywood skyrocketed. Buy a 2x4 or sheet of plywood lately? Doubled in price in many cases. Housing more expensive. Massive forest fires destroying valueable timber that is laid to waste. Your not even allowed to go do salvage cuts in the burned out areas. What the Bush administration is doing is trying to undo some of the damage done by Clinton's far reaching policy. Clinton enacted this months before he left office. Part of his need to establish his legacy.

Forestry and forest management has come a long way since it's sullied past of slash and burn and big clearcuts. The approach is more scientific and towards sustained yield management. Much of this has been forced on the industry by the consumer  who demands that their lumber comes from well managed forests. We can mange our forests for multiple use, including timber harvests, fire prevention, etc. and not be dependent on foreign imports. And it can be good for the environment as well. Not all wildlife lives in old growth forests. Openings in the forests are necessary for species like deer, grouse, etc.

Nearly 200 million acres of federal land are already set aside as national parks and fish and wildlife managed lands. Not to mention the millions of acres of state parks and forest land that we have. Another 105 million acres are set aside as forever wild wilderness acres. We didn't need to effectively create another 60 million acres of wilderness area that the public can't even get into, for lack of roads. The land was supposed to be for multiple use, not for more wilderness area.

Well I've said my piece. Let's talk fishing.

[FrankM]

Well said, Lumberjohn.  I agree with you 100%.  You stated your case well and backed it up with facts.  Properly done, logging is beneficial to wildlife and timber is a renewable resource.  Our National Forests were originally created for multiple-use which includes timber and recreation.  This "forever wild" concept is based on emotions not facts, and does more harm than good for hunters and fishermen.  I have a 50 acre hunting property in southern NY and my deer hunting success has increased tremendously since I had it logged (selective cutting) in 1999.   
On the acid rain issue, something definitely needs to be done.  I understand we need to generate power to create jobs so we can earn the money necessary to fund our hunting and fishing addictions.  But having all this mercury in lakes that should be clean in inexcuseable.  We are the most technologically advanced nation on earth and there must be some way to clean up these emissions without stifling our economy.

[jf5]

Yes, Lumberjohn, well said. I have nothing agasint logging on these forests at all. But I don't think the public should have 100% vehicle access to all these logging roads.

[lumberjohn]

Let me add something. After graduating from The College of Environmental Science and Forestry with a BS in Forest Management in 1980 I went out west a did a stint with The US Forest Service in the Nezperce National Forest. Great job for a kid in his early 20's. I was on a crew that cut up and piled the logging slash in areas that had been logged. In the fall we went back and torched the piles. We also did controlled burns in standing timber which also eliminates accumulated debris and duff. The purpose of this was to eliminate the fuel on the forest floor which would constitute a major fire hazard. This also had the effect of returning nutrients to the soil and exposing the mineral soil so conifer seedlings could take root ensuring natural regeneration. I also fought fire while there. This one was small by most standards, about 7000 acres in a remote roadless wilderness area. 500 of us were brought into a wilderness area all by helicopter and equipment, tents, food airlifted and parachuted in. You haven't lived until your in the midst of a raging inferno. Watching 100+ foot Ponderosa Pines and Fir trees go poof up in a flame of smoke like a lit Diamond matchstick. Digging fire lines through the night on mountainsides so steep that  if you stoped and laid down to rest you had to put your feet on a tree so you didn't slide down the hill. Seeing Elk and Big Horn sheep running for their lives. Finding rattlesnakes caught in the advancing flame burnt to a crisp like overdone bacon. Ducking for cover while airtankers drop their slurry of fire retardant which has the consistency of half gelled Jello. You don't want to get hit by that stuff, a direct hit can knock over a truck. The point is I lived through and saw first hand the effects of a major forest fire. What's left is a burned out moonscape. Talk about a clearcut!! I was at Yellowstone in 1998 ten years after the devasting 1988 fires which destroyed over half that park. 10 years later and the landscape was still littered with dead blackened trees scattered about like pick-up-sticks. And there was virtually no regeneration of a new forest taking place. The charred dead downed and standing timber prevented light from getting to the forest floor allowing for new growth. The burnt out areas were so vast that the seedlings from surrounding live forest couldn't get blown in far enough by the wind to reach into the center. Conversely nearby lands owned by Weyerhaueser had been salvage cut after the fires. Where natural regeneration couldn't take place they went in and planted. Their lands had trees on them that were already 20-30' tall 10 years later.

In the early 80's environmentalists were successful in getting Congress to make the US Forest Service and National Park Service, etc. change the way our timberlands and parks were managed to a hands off approach. The Spotted Owl issue resulted in millions of acres of timberlands to be effectively closed to any kind of management at all. A let it burn type of policy was enacted. This was bad science. Prior to that we had aggressively fought to put out all fires. That was bad science too. We have since learned, and policy is shifting to, a need to manage our forest and use controlled burns to reduce the forest floor fuels. Also to let naturally occuring low intensity fires do the same thing and let them burn. This type of management is best for the forests. But, if you can't get into areas because they are roadless you can't effectively manage our national timberlands. Proper logging has no more devasting effect than a forest fire. Actually less so because logged areas are done in such a way as to allow for natural regeneration or are replanted. The beauty of wood is that it is a natural resource, it grows back. Our national forest timberlands return money to the treasury, provide jobs, create a tax base, provide the nation with a valueable resource, pay for schools and infrastructure in the communities that depend upon them. They are not a hand out to big timber companies. The timber companies bid on those logs and they pay for the roads that are built and maintained and the money helps pay for the management of our national forests. To close off the national forests to logging places a drain on our abilitry to pay for effective management of the lands administerd by the Dept of Interior. It also forces the nation to buy forest products from more third world countries that are far less equiped, or even care, how their forests are managed.

I could go on, but enough said. I'll climb down off my soap box now.

(caught 3 smallmouth and a northern last night between thundershowers)

[jf5]

Nice fishing!! How big was the northern?

[lumberjohn]

Northern was 21.5 inches. He went back. Hit a gold Rat-L-Trap. At least it was gold before he scraped all the paint off one side with those chompers. Had another 2' ax-handle burst out of the weeds and nail an 8" rock bass I had on. It was a tug of war for awhile but I won when he let go.

[USMC130FE]

Lumberjohn,

I would like to take a moment to thank you for your well presented opinions on this thread.  Extremely well written and informative.  In my opinion you can climb on your soap box anytime.  Thanks again!!

Steve