MyFishFinder Forum
MFF US Midwest => Indiana => Topic started by: charlys1954 on Mar 14, 2019, 05:23 AM
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Our local baitshop has been here for decades but doesn't have minnows in the winter. So this summer gona try keeping minnows in the basement. If it works then I'll stock up before winter and hopefully they'll live thru the ice season. In the winter my basement stays pretty cold and the colder the water the longer they'll live.
Just ordered 3lb Sure Life Better Bait for $26(free S&H). 3lbs suppose to treat 2,400 which'll take me years to use but the 10z bottle was $15, so for $11 more I got 2lb 6oz more. All ready got a aquarium, filter, and aireator pump so that should be all I need.
Anyone with secrets on keep minnow alive longer will appreciate the input.
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Keep them cool. We use to store ours in a chest freezer we ran on low with the lid off. Just ran a water pump with a pvc manifold to aerate the water.
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Yep that would work. I watched several youtube videos on people using a chest freeze, one guy put a temp control on his to keep temp constant. Don't have one so I may have to add ice from icemaker if it doesn't stay cool enough in the summer. Would like to keep the water temp at least 50 or less.
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I raise brook, brown, rainbow/steelhead, tiger trout fingerlings, tilapia, and hybrid crappies, presently in my basement. I have raised yellow perch and smallmouth bass in the basement too.
You need two things to successfully do it:
1. Obviously some kind of tank whether it be square, round, or rectangular.
2. Some type of bio filter to oxidize ammonia given off by the fish to nitrites and then harmless nitrates. Doesn't matter how much oxygen you have in the water. If you don't oxidize the ammonia the fish will eventually poison themselves.
3. Some type of mechanical filtration to remove waste to keep the water clean.
4. A small water pump to move water through the system.
5. An air pump to provide oxygen and to agitate the plastic media if you want to the route of a moving bed filter.
And you need to give your bio filter time to build up the bacteria population usually by feeding it small amounts of non- sudzing ammonia.
You can build all of this yourself as long as you have a tank, and couple of blue plastic drums.
The book Small Scale Aquaculture by Steve VanGorder for about $20.00 on Amazon will tell you how to rear up to about 50 lbs. of fish easily. However two things I would change which I have.
1. You don't need a large swimming pool.
2. I would build a moving biofilter in a barrel vs. the RBC in the book. Just the material for the RBC will run you about $500.00. I know because I built 3 of them. The cost of the moving bed filter is just a blue drum, membrane diffuser, and plastic media.
I've build all of my own equipment, and if I can do it anyone can.
If all this sounds complicated just upsize a large aquarium.
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Always best to keep them COLD too.
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I won't need a big setup, especially for the summer since I'm only 3 miles from Chucks. Winter is the problem, closest bait shop I know of for minnows is Bass lake and its way out of my way. In the summer I'll keep no more than 5-6 doz crappie, for winter 3-4 doz crappie and 2-3 doz walleye/bass.
tks for all the input
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If you have a pond on the property you can always build a floating cage.
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Here are a few thousand brook, brown, tiger, and rainbow/steelhead hatched and reared in a circular tank in my basement. This particular system is a little more complicated than the other species as the water has to stay gin clear and cold. It has a total of three types of filters and a chiller. Trout are very sensitive to particulates in the water.
(https://i.imgur.com/UxFRRjXl.jpg)
The eggs were hatched in DIY floating baskets. All of my equipment is DIY.
(https://i.imgur.com/nI9x19Xl.jpg)
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I first started with this one.
A 40 gallon Rubbermaid tote.
It got kinda crowded.
lol
(https://i.postimg.cc/K1fMqZN0/DSC01145.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/K1fMqZN0)
(https://i.postimg.cc/4Yxd3p61/DSC01146.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4Yxd3p61)
(https://i.postimg.cc/4nvNbWw5/DSC01147.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4nvNbWw5)
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I then built this 100 gallon setup.
At the end, I had a rough particulate filter followed by a wet drip filter system (the 40 gallon tote filled with bio-balls), followed by a canister filter for a hot tub.
Major setup and worked great.
Even had a heater in it and floated Styrofoam on the surface in the winter to keep it from freezing as it was out in the garage.
I had bought a chiller for it for the summer months but never installed it.
The lifted the stupid minnow ban in NY, so I decided I didn't need to do this anymore.
(That's all I'm saying 'bout that)
;)
BTW, the water on the garage floor was a leak.
I fixed it after the photos.
Wish I had taken more pix in the end showing the entire setup.
My pals all thought I was nutz, but they also loved to stop by and grab minnows too.
;D
(https://i.postimg.cc/p59rPFgd/DSC01280.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/p59rPFgd)
(https://i.postimg.cc/QH8sg56K/DSC01281.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QH8sg56K)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xcChTPx5/DSC01282.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xcChTPx5)
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And here's one of my saltwater tanks that I converted for minnows in my basement.
It was a 125 gallons.
You can see the hot tub canister filter I was using.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nst37Kk6/DSC01011.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nst37Kk6)
(https://i.postimg.cc/VdxgQ93d/DSC01012.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VdxgQ93d)
(https://i.postimg.cc/dkNRWG2Q/DSC01013.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dkNRWG2Q)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hr1wPYyM/DSC01014.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Hr1wPYyM)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HrtyZQHG/DSC01016.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HrtyZQHG)
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Good stuff Mac!
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great setup guys but a little bigger than I need for a small amount on minnows. Thinking about using a 15 gl aquarium, tote tubs, or old ice chest. The ice chest may be the best since its insulated, a lid, and drain.
Mac, no idea just guessing but your 40gl tank looks like its got at least 20+ dozen in it. Going by that by the time winter rolls around I should have an idea how big a tank I need for 6 doz. I would think 15-20 gal should be big enough. Having minnows all winter is the main idea for doing this.
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Salt them and throw them in the freezer.
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Mac
You said lifted minnow ban? certified?
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Mac
You said lifted minnow ban? certified?
Like I said, that’s all I’m going to say on that.
;)
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Mac
You said lifted minnow ban? certified?
Don't know anything about it but searched NY minnow bait and found the following at this link.
http://www.eregulations.com/newyork/fishing/baitfish-regulations/ (http://www.eregulations.com/newyork/fishing/baitfish-regulations/)
Certified baitfish
Certified baitfish are those that have been tested and found to be free of specified diseases. Use of certified baitfish helps prevent the spread of fish diseases. Certified baitfish purchased from a bait dealer can be transported overland in a motorized vehicle and used in any water body where it is legal to do so.
For baitfish to be considered certified, the seller must provide a receipt that contains:
•the seller’s name,
•date of sale,
•the species of fish, and
•the number of each species sold.
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http://nytrappers.proboards.com/thread/27224/minnows-craw-fish (http://nytrappers.proboards.com/thread/27224/minnows-craw-fish)
Evidently NY had/has some type of ban on minnow baits because of diseases minnows might carry. At this trappers forum link above one person said.
Oct 21, 2013 · Transporting minnows captured by yourself over the road is illegal in New York state. If a game warden checks you you are in trouble. Buying bait from bait …
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yea, i thought still had to be certified and you couldnt catch your own ,but thought mac found something out saying different
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There's a corridor now.
You can catch your own, and transport.
But basically must be used in the same water.
We net them in the Niagara River.
So I can use them in any Great Lake, the Niagara River, and any of the Great Lakes bays or tribs.
But a buncha years back it was stupid here.
And they did hand out tickets.
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o yea i knew of the niagara corridor thing ,just thought you meant state wide
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So far doesn't look good for keeping minnows all next winter.
Set up the old aquarium put better bait treatment in, air pump w/filter, and dropped in 1/4# crappie minnows(baitshop guy said that's about 4 dozen). Been 4 days and lost 9(7 last 2 days). At that rate they won't last as long as I'm wanting next winter.
The temps steady at 55, thought it would be colder being its in the basement. Its city well water treated with chlorine not Chloramine so that can't be it. The tank was old with small leak so I used DAP window/door/siding 100% silicone. It cured for 3 days before putting in water. No where on the cartridge does it say mildew resistant, I read not to use mildew resistant cause the additives would kill the minnows.
I may have to try a big plastic tub if the aquarium doesn't work out. I like the aquarium cause a tub will be hard to see/pick the deads ones out.
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So far doesn't look good for keeping minnows all next winter.
Set up the old aquarium put better bait treatment in, air pump w/filter, and dropped in 1/4# crappie minnows(baitshop guy said that's about 4 dozen). Been 4 days and lost 9(7 last 2 days). At that rate they won't last as long as I'm wanting next winter.
The temps steady at 55, thought it would be colder being its in the basement. Its city well water treated with chlorine not Chloramine so that can't be it. The tank was old with small leak so I used DAP window/door/siding 100% silicone. It cured for 3 days before putting in water. No where on the cartridge does it say mildew resistant, I read not to use mildew resistant cause the additives would kill the minnows.
I may have to try a big plastic tub if the aquarium doesn't work out. I like the aquarium cause a tub will be hard to see/pick the deads ones out.
Chloramine is chlorine with ammonia. And chloramine stays in the water longer than chlorine. Neither are good for fish.
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Well water is good, yes????
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Well water is good, yes????
yup
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Chloramine is chlorine with ammonia. And chloramine stays in the water longer than chlorine. Neither are good for fish.
Correct.
You can bubble water overnight with an airstone and remove chlorine easily enough.
Chloramine is WAY tougher and darned near impossible.
Use a chloramine neutralizing agent.
You only need a few drops per gallon, so it isn't terribly expensive.
Call your water dept to find out what they use.
Or assume they use chloramine and treat it anyway.
Chloramine neutralizer works also on chlorine.
Or collect rainwater in a barrel.
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great setup guys but a little bigger than I need for a small amount on minnows. Thinking about using a 15 gl aquarium, tote tubs, or old ice chest. The ice chest may be the best since its insulated, a lid, and drain.
Mac, no idea just guessing but your 40gl tank looks like its got at least 20+ dozen in it. Going by that by the time winter rolls around I should have an idea how big a tank I need for 6 doz. I would think 15-20 gal should be big enough. Having minnows all winter is the main idea for doing this.
bigger is always better.
And really not that much more $
Easier to care for too.
You will always have die off.
Be sure to remove them ASAP.
they will decay and add more ammonia to thing quickly.
Salt the dead ones and toss into the freezer. Or your garden (without salt)
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I always had to start with just a few fish at first.
yup.
Gets the good bacteria going and growing
The cycle starts in just a few days to a week.
But we used to use 3-4 weeks of only a handful of fish before adding more fish.
Then we added and grew the amount slowly, weekly, to allow the bacteria to adjust and grow as the ammonia levels increased.
the bacteria first turns the ammonia to nitrites.
Then turns nitrites to nitrates.
Nitrates are safe for fishies.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rdgG2yVZ/Nitrogen-Cycle-In-Aquarium1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rdgG2yVZ)
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There's a corridor now.
You can catch your own, and transport.
But basically must be used in the same water.
We net them in the Niagara River.
So I can use them in any Great Lake, the Niagara River, and any of the Great Lakes bays or tribs.
But a buncha years back it was stupid here.
And they did hand out tickets.
Oh heck it was even worse for fish farmers. They completely shut down the moving of fish for about year. Feds sat on their hands with no clue that fish farmers need to put food on the table. Some fish farms went out of business.
And the VHS thing turned out to be way overblown. Fish have been tested in all the Great Lakes ports and have tested positive with no clinical signs. Of course that means they have developed an immunity. The study also speculated the virus has been here 20 years before the fish kills. And many of the fish kills were predominantly rough fish like gobies etc. -- not game fish. But strangely the study done by, I believe Cornell, that showed the above, has disappeared off the Internet. At least I can't find it anymore.
But we fish farmers still have to test for VHS and it's not cheap although the feds dropped it in the laps of the state agencies and washed their hands of it. I'd have to pay 2 grand for me to test my extra trout for a plethora of pathogens including VHS if I want to sell them to pond owners in the Lake Michigan basin. Many trout farms spend much more. This for a virus that has never been found in any fish hatchery and probably never will be. Meanwhile God knows what is coming in next via ballast water on the ships.
But here's the real kicker: The whole VHS fiasco was started by the president of the NAA (National Aquaculture Association) who was buddies with a big wig at APHIS. (They admitted it when I told them I would never join their org for that reason). The NAA guy was getting pressure from the southern bait producers that were allegedly concerned about the virus. So that he got his buddy at APHIS to get the ball rolling.
Guess who that helped and ran some northern bait dealers out of business?
And the above is not heresy. I was twice president of my state aquaculture association so I'm privy to a lot of information.
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yup.
Gets the good bacteria going and growing
The cycle starts in just a few days to a week.
But we used to use 3-4 weeks of only a handful of fish before adding more fish.
Then we added and grew the amount slowly, weekly, to allow the bacteria to adjust and grow as the ammonia levels increased.
the bacteria first turns the ammonia to nitrites.
Then turns nitrites to nitrates.
Nitrates are safe for fishies.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rdgG2yVZ/Nitrogen-Cycle-In-Aquarium1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rdgG2yVZ)
I prefer to use non sudsing ammonia to get my bacteria going.
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Hope the input all others are putting in will help others who are thinking about doing this, its helped me tks guys.
I have to use city water. Before starting I called the city treatment plant, he said they add chlorine, no Chloramine. And he said they use well water not river water. The water sat for 2-3 days so all the chlorine dissipated plus Better Bait said it is supposed to remove chlorine.
As for bacteria growth the filter says, black bio-sponge and ceramic rings with gravel provides biochemical filtration and support the colonization of bacteria. Its a 15gl tank so I don't need a oversized filter. For winter I'm not planning of keeping much more than 5-6 doz at a time. If I do go to a big tub I'll be making a DIY filter, have watched many videos on how to make one.
Not saying this is part of it but it could be. The baitshop also is a Taxidermy shop and the air is filled with a strong chemical smell, I know that smell cause I was a Taxidermist for 20 yrs. So those air particles may work their way into the tank water. Plus I'm sure residue was on his hands, he was mounting a head and went directly to the tank for minnows. From now on I'll get minnows from Chucks, these was from out of town.
Maybe in a few more days bacteria growth will setting down the tank but I don't know I'm just newbee at this, check today and no dead ones yet.
tks again for the help.
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yup.
Gets the good bacteria going and growing
The cycle starts in just a few days to a week.
But we used to use 3-4 weeks of only a handful of fish before adding more fish.
Then we added and grew the amount slowly, weekly, to allow the bacteria to adjust and grow as the ammonia levels increased.
the bacteria first turns the ammonia to nitrites.
Then turns nitrites to nitrates.
Nitrates are safe for fishies.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rdgG2yVZ/Nitrogen-Cycle-In-Aquarium1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rdgG2yVZ)
Great info, tks Mac. After looking at the photo it says when high content of Nitrite fish will gasp at surface. All my minnows stay on the bottom, have yet to see one come to the surface. Does this mean its not full of nitrite.
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Great info, tks Mac. After looking at the photo it says when high content of Nitrite fish will gasp at surface. All my minnows stay on the bottom, have yet to see one come to the surface. Does this mean its not full of nitrite.
It means they are not starving for air.
they are getting enough through their gill plates.
15 gallon tank is too small for 5-6 doz minnows IMHO.
It won't support that many.
Maybe 2-3 at best.
Your die off will be high.
If you do constant 5-10% water changes every day or two you could get by.
I know that's not what you want to hear, but...…….
Again, keep the water COLD.
35-40 degrees if you can.
It lower their metabolism.
They then create far less ammonia.
Colder water will support more minnows.
And don't feed them!!!
Cold water = low metabolism = less food required = less poop = less ammonia
Here is what I was going to do.
I was going to convert a chest freezer into a bait tank.
An old chest freezer, which I did have, and some silicone sealer to make it water tight.
And this conversion -
https://johnlvs2run.wordpress.com/2009/10/08/chest-fridge-conversion/#more-1061 (https://johnlvs2run.wordpress.com/2009/10/08/chest-fridge-conversion/#more-1061)
I know guys that have done this and it works phenomenal and uses very little electric.
Have fun.
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It means they are not starving for air.
they are getting enough through their gill plates.
That's good news
15 gallon tank is too small for 5-6 doz minnows IMHO.
It won't support that many.
Maybe 2-3 at best.
Your die off will be high.
I was just going by the 40gl tub you was using, couldn't see the bottom for the minnows. Ill see if I can find a bigger fish tank, probably have to use the big tub I have thinks its about 30 gl.
Again, keep the water COLD.
35-40 degrees if you can.
It lower their metabolism.
They then create far less ammonia.
Colder water will support more minnows.
And don't feed them!!!
I got an ice machine I can add ice daily, all last summer I added ice to the bucket w/air stone I was using. Didn't work very good cause no filter but the ice did keep temps 40-50
Here is what I was going to do.
I was going to convert a chest freezer into a bait tank.
An old chest freezer, which I did have, and some silicone sealer to make it water tight.
I watched several videos on using a chest freezer, wished I had a small one great idea for keeping water temps low.
Time to head out, pool trny every Tues at 630, 1st last week won $40.
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Those Rubbermaid totes are cheap at Home depot and value.
Cheaper than a fish tank.
And they come with a cover!!!!
Cover keeps the water from evaporating.
Ice will shock them.
Need to be very careful using ice.
Craigslist on the small chest freezer.
You would be surprised.
I tried to give mine away for free to anyone who would take it from my garage.
Not even in the basement inside!!!!!!!!!
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It's amazing how many fish you can hold in a tank if you have enough mechanical and bio-fitration. This 250 gallon cut down water tank has over 2000 3 to 4 inch brook, brown, tiger, and rainbow/steeelhead in it right now. (The water is not yellow but the camera flash makes it look that way. I have to use flash as the room the tank is in has to be fairly dark.)
I hatched the fish in the same tank with eggs from an egg suppler in Utah.
(https://i.imgur.com/N9bazlem.jpg)
I will be moving them outside into the floating net pen below once I get it done. I have to put them in the cage until fall to protect them from the larger trout in the pond. This because I only have one pond to produce an annual crop of trout. Will probably have to move them to a larger net pen with larger mesh as they grow. Will release them after we harvest has many of the larger trout as possible in the fall to prevent catching them. They will however be large enough to escape predation at about 11 to 12 inches for the few remaining larger trout.
(https://i.imgur.com/rtvOMSnm.jpg)
I have two 55 gallon drums of moving plastic media, sieve screen. in a tote, two sock filters, and an up flow sand and gravel filter on this system all DIY. And of course a chiller to keep the water temp cold enough for the trout. My other systems are much simpler but trout need extra clean water and aren't very tolerant of ammonia and nitrites. And unlike other fish they have issues with nitrates too.
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It's amazing how many fish you can hold in a tank if you have enough mechanical and bio-filtration.
Boom!!
Exactly.
Great advice.
Want to put a lot of fish in a small tank, that's the key.
Fresh water.
Either a constant or frequent fresh supply of water or plenty of filtration.
Or both.
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Boom!!
Exactly.
Great advice.
Want to put a lot of fish in a small tank, that's the key.
Fresh water.
Either a constant or frequent fresh supply of water or plenty of filtration.
Or both.
Exactly and it's amazing how many people don't understand the need for biofiltation. In the pet trade it's know as new tank syndrome where people throw fish in an aquarium and kill them from ammonia poisoning. I even had a ag teacher I set up a system with, that didn't understand the concept. It was taking forever to get the tank cycled and I finally figured out the problem: the teacher was using chlorinated water!
I have also found if you can keep the biofilters going from year to year, even if there are no fish temporarily, the bacteria matures and is more reliable. Once I plant my tilapia, hybrid crappie, and trout into the outdoor ponds in the spring I keep feeding the biofilters ammonia.
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I have also found if you can keep the biofilters going from year to year, even if there are no fish temporarily, the bacteria matures and is more reliable. Once I plant my tilapia, hybrid crappie, and trout into the outdoor ponds in the spring I keep feeding the biofilters ammonia.
Yup!
At one point, about 20 yrs back, I had over 1000 gallons of saltwater tanks going in my basement.
A lot on one huge filtration system.
I would routinely take a handful of bioballs or gravel from established tanks and put it into a new tank to give the bacteria a jumpstart.
Start your minnow tank slow!!!
Add a dozen minnows and get an ammonia test kit and test the water daily in the first 2-4 weeks.
Watch for an ammonia spike.
Do frequent water changes.
It typically take about 4 weeks to get the bacteria that eats ammonia going.
And another 2-4 to grow the bacteria that consumes the nitrites.
In 6-8 weeks add another dozen.
Then add a dozen each week till you get to where you want to be.
Otherwise you will have them dying on you.
And once you establish the system, keep it running.
If you don't want minnows in it over the summer for fishing, just keep a dozen or so in there to keep the biology running.
Then, in the Fall, start adding them right away, but slowly.
As you add more fish, you will add more ammonia load and the bacteria will multiply accordingly.
But it all takes time.
Have fun.
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Here's all I use to test water even in large systems. Only cost about 20 to 22 dollars. I've had various meters but hate constantly calibrating meters.
(https://i.imgur.com/2PVKskrm.jpg)
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Start your minnow tank slow!!!
Add a dozen minnows and get an ammonia test kit and test the water daily in the first 2-4 weeks.
Watch for an ammonia spike.
Do frequent water changes.
It typically take about 4 weeks to get the bacteria that eats ammonia going.
And another 2-4 to grow the bacteria that consumes the nitrites.
In 6-8 weeks add another dozen.
Then add a dozen each week till you get to where you want to be.
Otherwise you will have them dying on you.
And once you establish the system, keep it running.
If you don't want minnows in it over the summer for fishing, just keep a dozen or so in there to keep the biology running.
Then, in the Fall, start adding them right away, but slowly.
As you add more fish, you will add more ammonia load and the bacteria will multiply accordingly.
But it all takes time.
Its been about 3 wks and I've kept track, 7 still alive, used 20 fishing, and 48 died. Didn't think I had that many but looks like 6 dozen. So your info was on point, to many to fast equals allot of dead minnows. So from this point on I just keep a few in there until the death rate slows or stops.
As for keeping the water cold at 35-40 degrees. Its just a small project not gona put allot of $ into it so adding ice is the only method I will have in summer time. When winter gets back the basement temp will drop which will cool the water.
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Ice doesn’t work.
Shocks them
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Ice doesn’t work.
Shocks them
Sorry
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My trout fingerlings are now out in one of the ponds here until I get the trout pond filled back up after draining.
(https://i.imgur.com/b9a7yCLm.jpg)
The pen out of the water:
(https://i.imgur.com/knyswGpm.jpg)
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Updating my minnow bait tank progress. A month ago I bought 2-55gal blue drums for $5 at an auction. I been using minnow traps and put the minnows I catch in the barrels.
At first I only used one but could not see the minnows in the bottom so I cleaned/scrubed the other and painted it white inside, filled it and put the bigger minnows in it and smaller ones in the other(it was not painted). I am thinking I made a mistake painting it, some of the white paint is flaking off. Looks like when I try to catch them I scrap the bottom/sides and it scratches the paint. At first I was not loosing any but here lately I've started loosing a few. When using the net to catch them I do notice tiny white paint flakes. I've also lost some in the unpainted tank.
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Also, a darker tank environment will lower stress and reduce ammonia levels resulting in healthier and livelier baitfish.
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Like I said with the barrel being blue I could not see the minnows to catch them. Saw a video of one guy painting tank white so I did, mistake I think. I do have big items in it so they can hide and my basement is totally dark 24/7 no lights except I go down each day to check for dead ones. Lights on maybe 5 min/day
You have any idea if the paint chips are harmful, they are tiny small enough they can swallow them.
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I understood why you did it, but that's not the answer to your problem.
Get a larger dip net.
Half the diameter of the drum wide and tall too so they don't go over.
https://www.amazon.com/TAAM-Proffesional-Handle-Coarse-Aquarium/dp/B0002DGPDG/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2A1CEEF3IK9OR&keywords=large+aquarium+net&qid=1569761982&s=gateway&sprefix=large+aquarium+%2Caps%2C145&sr=8-5 (https://www.amazon.com/TAAM-Proffesional-Handle-Coarse-Aquarium/dp/B0002DGPDG/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2A1CEEF3IK9OR&keywords=large+aquarium+net&qid=1569761982&s=gateway&sprefix=large+aquarium+%2Caps%2C145&sr=8-5)
https://www.amazon.com/RUNATURE-Collapsable-Aluminum-Saltwater-Freshwater/dp/B07JVT89FT/ref=sr_1_31?dchild=1&keywords=large+minnow+net&qid=1569762374&s=gateway&sr=8-31 (https://www.amazon.com/RUNATURE-Collapsable-Aluminum-Saltwater-Freshwater/dp/B07JVT89FT/ref=sr_1_31?dchild=1&keywords=large+minnow+net&qid=1569762374&s=gateway&sr=8-31)
Minnows, especially emeralds, need a very low stress environment.
A nd like you stated, foreign mater like paint isn't a good idea.
However, if you do want to paint it there are approved paints for ponds and aquariums that are approved for aquatic life.
I've kept them like you are trying in the past and did a LOT of experimenting.
I'm not trying to argue with you, only trying to help.
Here's a link to some info on my old setups -
https://www.myfishfinder.com/fishing_forum/index.php?topic=1019.msg662078#msg662078 (https://www.myfishfinder.com/fishing_forum/index.php?topic=1019.msg662078#msg662078)
Good luck.
Mac
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Not arguing here either. My update post was all about the painting of the barrel, and if the flaking paint will kill the minnows. I used a cheap Walmart spray paint and let the barrel sun air dry before/after painting. I may just empty the barrel and try to remove the paint, if not possible I'll just put a big trash bag inside if they make them that big.
You have a nice elaborate setup, you evidently use way more minnows than I do if you had 1,000. I would be lucky to actually use 50-75 thru the winter and that would be if we have ice 2 months. Last year I got out less than 10 times
I'm trying to keep cost down as low as I can , can't spend $20+ on a big net. Just trying to cheaply make something where I can hold a few minnows thru the winter when the bait shops don't have them.
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Had one of those heavy cast iron concrete sinks, Had it for years finally got rid of it, now I wish I would of kept it cause that would of been perfect to store a few minners.
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Update on trying to keep minnows alive in my basement.
I've come to the conclusion its mostly all about water temp on how many die. My results is its no matter what you do its mainly about how cold your water is.
I kept a daily data sheet since my start in Aug. I kept track on what I bought and daily dead count. All summer and early fall my water temp was warm, upper 60's to lower 60's and eventually in time they all would die. No matter what I had in the tank on average I lost 5-10% of the count daily. Ex: if I had 50 in the take I lost 2-5 daily.
Oct 27th I paid for 2 doz bass/ 2 doz crappie, the bait shop owner gave me a ton extra, I counted 153 all together probably to many for my tank. The 50 gallon tank had a big DIY 5 gallon bucket bio filter and a big aerator stone. I lost minnows daily, by Nov 25th I only had 8 left. By then the temp was steadily below 60 in the 50's. Since the temp has been in the mid to low 50's I've lost 1 minnow since Nov 25th to present.
In another 50g tank I also had large minnows(5-7") I caught in the creek. Those the warm water temp did not seem to bother as much, death rate was way lower just 1-2 a month.
For next summer I am gona try to find something(cheao) to keep water in 50's. Maybe a water fountain cooling system or maybe ice. My fridge makes about 10lb+ ice/day.
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Update on trying to keep minnows alive in my basement.
I've come to the conclusion its mostly all about water temp on how many die. My results is its no matter what you do its mainly about how cold your water is.
For next summer I am gona try to find something(cheao) to keep water in 50's. Maybe a water fountain cooling system or maybe ice. My fridge makes about 10lb+ ice/day.
Like I said, the ice will shock them.
Of course feeding it into your bio filter slowly might ease the pain.
Make sure there's no chlorine in the ice water.
Here is what I was going to do.
Seal up an old chest freezer with aquarium sealer (silicone).
Then convert it into a refrigerated bait tank.
Very easy on the power cost.
Here's a link on how to convert the freezer into a fridge -
https://johnlvs2run.wordpress.com/2009/10/08/chest-fridge-conversion/#more-1061 (https://johnlvs2run.wordpress.com/2009/10/08/chest-fridge-conversion/#more-1061)
And the lid keep the water inside and keeps the minnows in the dark.
Lower stress rate.
Good luck.
Keep us updated on how you do.
Here's another link I had on bait tanks -
https://www.customlivewells.com/ (https://www.customlivewells.com/)
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Using a freezer is a great idea but getting a large or medium freezer is not really a option for me I have a very narrow stairs to basement. A apartment size is about the only size I could get down in my basement. The ones I've seen have electrical wire/controls inside, would not be very safe that close to water and they don't hold a lot of water maybe 20-30 gallons.
You have tons of experience with minnow I have very little. Cooling the water down is about my only option. I don't know what experiences you have with adding ice but in my many years of ice fishing I've always added ice to minnow bucket with little problems. I'd buy 1-2 dozen minnows and go fishing, when I'd drill a hole I'd scoop up and add it to the minnow bucket, let it melt, and add more. I'd do that 2-3 times to get the minnow used to the ice cold water. I very seldom lost any doing that.
The only problem I see is chlorine in the ice. I just got off the phone with Sure Life Better Bait. The Rep said the chlorine will be immediately removed as the ice melts as long as I have better bait in the tank.
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Put the freezer in your garage.
That's where my food freezer is.
Once you seal up the inside water isn't an issue.
You could even paint the inside with epoxy afterwards if you are nervous.
Using ice while out ice fishing -
The ice obviously has no chlorine.
And the temp difference between the bait bucket and the ice is not so much - lesser stress from shock by changing the temp too quickly.
We would drill a hole in the ice with the auger, but not clear thru, and dump our bait bucket into the hole.
Our huts were kept very warm - lol
When I had my tank in the garage I tried ice.
It didn't work.
Always killed fish.
Chlorine kills fish - period!!!
It doesn't off-gas quickly enough before it kills the fish.
Sorry.
I have raised fish since I was a kid and have had many dozens of tanks over the years.
Both fresh and salt water.
Once I had a saltwater system in my basement with over 1000 gallons in the tanks and filter sumps.
My son studied marine biology.
And I did some research (behind the scenes) at a few Aquariums around the US and Canada.
I have discussed fish filtration and the keeping of fish with some pretty good experts.
You are correct with the temperature.
Emeralds need low temps to keep them.
The lower the better.
35-40 degrees works best.
It lowers their metabolism too.
They require less food and generate less waste, lowering the load on your filtration system.
Go speak to some bait guys that have been doing it for a long time.
You can buy a tank chiller but they are costly to run.
I did this once and is why I was going to go to the freezer.
The freezer is the most cost effective way to do it.
I will be doing this at my place on Lake Erie when I retire in 21.
Have fun.
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Put the freezer in your garage.
That's where my food freezer is.
Once you seal up the inside water isn't an issue.
You could even paint the inside with epoxy afterwards if you are nervous.
I do not have a garage, I do not have room for a freezer anywhere except the basement and as I said I could only get a small 3-5 cubic foot apartment size freezer down the stairs to the basement. And as I said, those small apartment freezer have the controls and wires inside the freezer "where the water would be" which you can not seal up they are exposed with vents and would be right next to the water level. Go look at this type of freezer and you might be able to understand, ones I've seen the controls are not on the outside.
Using ice while out ice fishing -
The ice obviously has no chlorine.
And the temp difference between the bait bucket and the ice is not so much - lesser stress from shock by changing the temp too quickly.
We would drill a hole in the ice with the auger, but not clear thru, and dump our bait bucket into the hole.
Our huts were kept very warm - lol
There is a big difference between the bucket water and the ice, 20 or more degrees difference.. When I could find them to buy right before going ice fishing the water temp. was what ever the bait shop kept it, I've tested it and its around 60 to mid 50's. After I'm done adding lake ice the temp drops down 20+ degrees close to mid 30's so there's a big difference in the water temp before and after adding ice. If done to fast it would stun a few of them, but most of the time they would come out of it.
When I had my tank in the garage I tried ice.
It didn't work.
Always killed fish.
Chlorine kills fish - period!!!
It doesn't off-gas quickly enough before it kills the fish.
Sorry.
Yes Chlorine kills fish. But did you have any Better Bait or other chlorine remover in the tank, you must not have or it would have removed the chlorine and not harmed the fish.
The Rep at Sure Life said if there is Better Bait in the tank, when ice is added and starts melting. The chlorine in the melted ice is immediately removed by Better Bait additive. He's the expert on minnow water care and chlorine removal so he would know.
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Didn't know you don't have a garage.
Sorry.
Yup, I used a chlorine and chloramine removal chemical.
It actually neutralized it.
Chlorine will off-gas and air bubbles help to speed it up.
You can set a pale of water out and the chlorine will off-gas in like 24-48 hrs.
Use that water to make your ice.
Chloramine won't off-gas.
Has to be neutralized or removed.
Here at my place in Cheektowaga near the airport they use chlorine.
Try those blue ice packs.
They worked for me and you don't have to worry about the chlorine.
Also, I think they last longer than straight ice.
I used them in the summer when transporting minnows.
Again, good luck and keep us posted.
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I have a 20 gallon tank for 150 or less shiners and a 50 gallon tank for anything over that. I have kept 400 shiners in there at a time and the only thing that would kill them is the filtration intake. Plug it up and I was good to go. This is my 20 gallon with 10 dozen. I also used the chlorine stabilizer prior to adding the fish. No Food and only run the filter every other day. Air stones run the whole time. This is in my basement.
(https://i.postimg.cc/G8GmjG6c/Resized-20200104-152133-3-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G8GmjG6c)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jnhqpKsm/Resized-20200104-173651-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jnhqpKsm)
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Very cool.
But Lake Erie emeralds are no where near as hardy as normal typical shiners.
Thanks.
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tks for the input Mac and Sharp.
This last summer the tank in my basement stayed on average 66°. So I did some test on dropping the temp using ice and here's the results.
I ran 3 identical test on 1/2 gallon of water in a plastic pitcher and all ended the same.
1/2 gallon of 66° water dropped to 55° with exactly 4oz ice added
I added 2oz more of ice and the temp dropped to 50°
Did this test 3 times with same results.
This test means it would take 1/2lb(8oz) ice to drop 1 gallon at 66° to 55° and 3/4lb(12oz) ice to drop 1 gallon at 66° to 50°.
Applying that to 40gal of water I get this.
20lb ice drops 40gal at 66° to 55°
30lb ice drops 40gal at 66° to 50°
No idea how high the temp would go up after 24hrs so on the next day it may or may not be back to 66°.
My ice maker makes about 10lb/24hrs and I'm not gona buy ice so in reality the ice cool down method will probably not be much of a option.
Since I can't make enough ice I'll either have to drop the water down to 20gal or only be able to drop 40 gallons down 5° from 66°to 61°
10lb ice drops 20gal at 66° to 55°
10lb ice drops 40gal at 66° to 61°
10lb of ice is 1.25 gallons so if I went to a 20gal tank I would be adding 1.25 gallons of chlorinated water. That added water would be de-chlorinated by the chlorine remover already in the tank.
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Yup, I used a chlorine and chloramine removal chemical.
It actually neutralized it.
I'm a little confused about what you said in your last 2 post. This one you say adding ice worked did not kill your minnows and in the one before you said "When I had my tank in the garage I tried ice. It didn't work. Always killed fish."
My water has just chlorine in it, I called the water treatment plant and they say they do not use chloramine
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I think you are going to spend more money on ice than needed. Just a thought, you can run copper piping in your tank and blast cold water through it to chill the whole tank in seconds. Same concept when I make my own beer, rapid cool down.
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Don't know how many gallons of beer you cool down. BUt I don't think 10-15ft of copper tube would cool down 40gal of water in seconds. To do that I would probably have to fill the tank up with copper tubing maybe 50-75ft and that would cost some big cash.
I don't have to buy ice I have a ice maker but makes only about 10lb/24hrs.
I have to ask how would I keep the water running thru coiled copper tubing ice cold. I can't use my house water its only 50° and my water bill would be outrageous.
I watched a couple videos on youtube on a DIY air condition using a fan with coiled copper tubing attached to front of the fan. They had a cooler with ice and water, they circulated the ice water thru the copper tube. This setup cost was $35-$40. $20 for 15' 1/4" Copper tubing, pump $10, vinyl tubing and clamps $5+.
I can buy allot of minnows for $35-$40 so I'm not sure this is the way for me to go plus I would probably be using the same amount of ice as if I was dumping the ice in the tank everyday. This would be a good way to go if it could be done cheaply.
With the water circulating thru the ice water I can see the ice melting fast, running water will eat thru ice fast and when its all melted the water would start to warm up to the temp of the minnow tank water.
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Bottom line.
The whole reason for this thread was I wanted a tank system to keep minnows in during the winter for ice fishing. The reason I wanted this is our local bait shop stops having minnows in the winter, late Oct early Nov they're out. And there's not another bait shop around I know of to get them in the winter.
I was planning on buying allot of minnows right before he ran out and keep them all winter. Well I did that, I bought 150 of them but since the weather was still warm I lost almost all of them before it turned cold enough to keep the tank water in the low 50's. THis is why I'm now trying to figure a "CHEAP" way to keep the water in mid/low 50's during warm weather. If my basement would stay colder it would help, it stays 65-70 until winter gets here.
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I'm a little confused about what you said in your last 2 post. This one you say adding ice worked did not kill your minnows and in the one before you said "When I had my tank in the garage I tried ice. It didn't work. Always killed fish."
My water has just chlorine in it, I called the water treatment plant and they say they do not use chloramine
Sorry - work has been rough and I've been tied up.
The ice idea does actually work but it involved too much hassle.
Too much ice too fast and you shock them.
Ice made straight from tap water has chlorine.
Let me explain.
I started making the ice with treated water.
And only added the ice in small amounts, but had to do it almost constantly.
It worked, but was a royal PITA.
So I stopped.
If I used ice from my freezer's ice maker it had chlorine in it.
Also, if I tossed it into the tank in large quantities...………..
For your copper idea.
Here's something I almost tired
Take the copper tubing and attach it to an in-tank power head (pump).
Run it out of the tank and into a cooler with a bit of the copper tubing coiled inside the cooler.
Then route the tubing out of the cooler and back into the tank.
Keep ice in the cooler to chill the coils.
Run a hose from the drain of the cooler to a floor drain in your basement to accept the ice water as it melts.
Now you can flow the tank water though the tubing and chill it, and it stays isolated from the ice with the chlorine in it.
I have a keg beer tap my FIL gave to me years ago that runs thru coils inside a cooler like this and it works great for chilling the beer prior to coming out of the tap.
Here's a link to a small power head that would work.
You need low flow but enough "head" capacity to push the water up and out of your tank and then thru the coils and back into the tank.
You might want the cooler up off the floor over to the side of the tank so gravity helps it to discharge.
(The pump doesn't need to pump up out of your tank and then up a second time out of the cooler and back to your tank)
https://www.amazon.com/Tiger-Pumps-Submersible-Powerheads-Hydroponics/dp/B01NBKNG4K/ref=sr_1_14?crid=Z8OUMEJYXBA8&keywords=aquarium+powerhead+water+pump&qid=1578755784&sprefix=aquarium+po%2Caps%2C157&sr=8-14 (https://www.amazon.com/Tiger-Pumps-Submersible-Powerheads-Hydroponics/dp/B01NBKNG4K/ref=sr_1_14?crid=Z8OUMEJYXBA8&keywords=aquarium+powerhead+water+pump&qid=1578755784&sprefix=aquarium+po%2Caps%2C157&sr=8-14)
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Here's a cartoon I created for you showing you what I mean.
(https://i.postimg.cc/k2KK2nch/minnow-tank.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/k2KK2nch)
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Maybe you would be better letting the melted ice water stay in the cooler and simply pull the cooler plug periodically and into a pail that you dump down a sink.
(Instead of the hose to the floor drain idea)
This way the ice water in the cooler completely surrounds 100% of the copper coils giving you far better cooling effect and heat transfer.
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I'll have to say, tks SHarps for bringing up this idea and tks Mac for extra input on the setup.
Putting the coil in the ice and circulating tank water thru a pipe in the ice i'm guessing should not eat up the ice as fast.
I am using a Kedsum 550GPM for my filter system and have a 2nd for backup I could use. The smallest tube adapter is 1/2" I'll have to call Kedsum and ask if reducing it down to 1/4 would hurt the pump. A slower pump would probably be better since the slower the water flows thru the pipe the more the water would cool. Ebay has a AQUANEAT 90GPM for $5 or a 160 or 120(Jalale) either for $8. I'm thinking 1/4 copper tubing would be better plus about half the cost of 1/2". 10-15 foot I would think be enough in the cooler, the coil I"ll attach to vinyl tubing to run to the tank.
I've got all winter to think about it since we have no ice yet that's allot of thinking time.
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No problem. Mac, you are spot on with what I meant except what I meant is ; take the pump in your drawing and put it into the cooler with ice slurry, the copper tubing into the tank. This way you are rotating the cold water from and into the cooler and never actually using water from your water supply. That tank will cool down asap and never have to worry about chlorine.
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But if you do it my way, you can also put a sponge filter on the inlet of the pump.
Your turn.
8)
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Sharps method, coil in the tank, the cooler ice probably would melt faster since water is circulating in the ice. But the water moving thru the tubing in tank would be ice cold. Essentially running ice water thru a coil that's in the tank.
With Mac's method coil in the cooler and circulating tank water in the tubing thru the ice water, the ice would last longer since water is not moving thru the ice. Essentially running tank water thru a coil that's in the ice water.
When the time comes I'll try both ways. Found some cheap copper tubing at Rural King, $5 for 10ft 1/4". If that's not enough I'll just buy another and hook them together for 20ft.
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Bringing your tank down to a low temp will chew up ice because of the larger delta T. Straight heat transfer facts. I design furnaces and ovens for a living. In conjunction, I also design cooling systems for them.
Now, once your tank water is cooled down, it will take less heat transfer to keep it there. So you will use less ice.
Another thing you might want to consider is insulating your tank to keep it cool.
BTW, ping pong balls are great insulation for the top of the water and will still allow for chlorine to off gas, your return water to penetrate, and O2 transfer to keep your minnows breathing.
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Use milk jugs from the freezer rotate those once or twice a day. save money on ice. might be able to put them in the water with the minnows, and keep the chlorine out of the water.