Wind knots... HELP!!

[Cider]

I am a pretty good flycaster but no expert.  I can usually (75-80%) cast my fly within 6" or so of where I want it to land.  I have problems with wind knots in my leader.  The longer I fish the more knotted my leader gets and the worse my fly presentation is.  I find this very frustrating.

Anyone else experience this a lot?  Any suggestions for avoiding this?  Is this a casting technique problem?  I was wondering if there was something I could apply to my leader to help.  I use Gherke's Gink and Xink to treat my flies and leaders.

[rgfixit]

I found much of my problems with wind knots were reduced when I switched to a Heavier Maxima leader from the flyline ...2-6' long  and a tippet from there.
I never had much luck avoiding this problem with tapered or 3-4 section leaders.

It seems the stiffer leader rolls and loads better. I started doing this with BIG pike flies to overcome the wind resistance and it's carried over to lighter flies very well.

RG

[Cider]

I use Orvis or Cortland  9 - 12' knotless mono leaders in 4X, 5X, and 6X diameter.  I usually will not use tippet material until I have changed my fly at least half a dozen times.  The smaller diameter the leader, the more wind knots.

Maybe my problem is inherent in the long leader?  They are necessary for the trout streams though...

[rgfixit]

Cider,
These are tapered leaders I assume?

RG

[seaweed01]

Cider,
I use Climax leaders and tippet material. I start
with a 9' 3x or 4x and add tippet to that. Example:
 if I'm using a 9'- 4x I'll add 2' of 4x tippet and then about the same or 18" of 5x and on down if needed.
Sometimes my leaders are 13 to 14'. Yes, they are
long but for the very selective fish, it works. And YES,
I do get a wind knot once in a while, especially if the
wind is blowing and have to force or push my cast a
little harder than normal. I have used  lots of types
of leaders and tippets and  I have  used only the
Climax products the last 10 years or so. I use it
because it is real stiff and for me its what works
the best.
I haven't heard of any products to help not to have
wind knots. Has anyone else?
Also another tip, always add a tippet of the same size
that is on the end of your leader, i.e. 4x on 4x.  After
you change a few or a lot of flies,  you start
getting close to your knot. Cut it off and add another
tippet. This saves and keeps your leader intact you can use the
same leader day after day without replacing it. Just
replace the tippets.
Hope I haven't confused everyone!
Pete

[livin4ice]

I mainly have the worst problems with wind knots when I get a little lazy and try to use a fly that is too big or small for what i am set up for at the time.  I told my wife that this is a serious problem and I need to have at least four fly rods to take with me at all times.  He He He

[Cider]

Bob - Yes, tapered leaders.  To be specific: Orvis Super Strong knotless tapered, Cortland Fairplay knotless tapered, Cortland 333 knotless tapered.

I also like the Climax leaders.  But, as mentioned before, I don't tie on tippet until I have changed flies several times and significantly removed the tippet on the leader.  I figure the less knots I have to begin with the better my presentation will be.

Actually, livin4ice may have pointed out one problem.  Sometimes I do push the limits of my rod and use flies that are too big or small depending upon how finicky the trout are being.

[rgfixit]

Oye!
I can see us packing 3 rods down the stream....could get worse than my floating tackle box (boat).
RG

[LoneWolf]

Usually wind knots can be cured in a few ways : one would be to downsize the fly/nymph being used (less wind resistant). Another way is timing your backcast and delivery. If your timing is off and your opening the backcast more knots will be created. Try different speed rates and punching the fly and see if that helps. 

[tommyboy]

Other than plain laziness, I have found that most wind knots can be prevented by taking the time to properly straighten the leader and tippet.  When fishing in cold water, this usually needs to be done every 15 minutes or so.  Once your line wants to fly rather than coil up, most of your problems will be solved.

[Trevor]

Windknots are caused my mistakes in your casting resulting in a tailing loop.  This occurs when your backcast and forecast are out of plane to each other.  No leader in the world will resist windknots if you're casting with a tailing loop.  Try shortening your stroke.  Try keeping your backcast higher.   Try to imagine your rod tip painting a line in the sky on the backcast,  as you go into your forecast try to retrace the line in the sky you made on your backcast.  People think you need to have a perfectly vertical casting plane.  You don't, I cast with a slight side arm, but when I bring the rod forward it follows the same path it did on the backcast.

Also, you can usually pinpoint the exact moment you incur a windknot.  If you notice as the line turns over the tailing line drops below the mainline on the forecast.  Bring in your line and immediately check for a windknot.  Normally you'll find one, and it won't be cinched yet.  So it is easy to undo at this point.  Check regularly.  Don't wait for that record trout to let you know there was a weakspot in your line.

Also, another mistake I often see is especially with beginners is they often let ego get in the way in that they feel they must cast 100' to catch a fish.   Cast a length of line you are comfortable with, if it's windy you may have to cast less line than usual.  Most fish I have caught in my life were taken inside of 30'.

Also, It does help to have a properly tapered leader and fly balanced to the weight of line you are casting.  Also straighten you leaders.  Less slack equates to less lost fish.  Having too much slack due to memory in the fly line or improperly straightened leader can also result in broken tippets during a hookset as the line will suddenly go tight as slack is taken up rather than tension gradually building against the cushion of the rod as you set the hook.  Also, as Tommyboy mentioned, if your line is coiling up as it lands on the water, you'll also get windknots, not to mention scare the crap out of any trout that may be nearby.

Trevor

[Cider]

Trevor - thanks for the post.  That was a great bit of advice.  Usually, I incur the most wind knots after I have been out for a long while and casting a lot.  I bet you nailed it with the notion of keeping my rod tip in the same plane on the forward and back cast.

Like you, I cast off to the side slightly because I find it to be a bit more comfortable and I usually have more control over the cast than a vertical false cast.

I bet you are right, I probably get lazy with my cast towards the end of the day due to fatigue and that is when I get the most wind knots.

I have lost some nice fish because of week points in my leader/tippet caused by wind knots.

I do run a leader straightener on my leader periodically but not as often as has been suggested here.  Perhaps if I watch that and be a little more strict with my casting form, even when tired, I will lick this problem!

Thanks! 

[seaweed01]

Well said Trevor!

[tommyboy]

Great Post, Trevor.  Now if you can come stand next to me all the time and tell me to stop being a lazy a$$, all of my problems will be solved.

Cider - I hope I didn't scare you into straightening you line too often (not that it would be a problem, just too much time not fishing).  I love to bass fish with the fly rod in mid-summer with warm water temps and hot air temps.  In those conditions, I usually only straighten my leader and tippet once when I get to the water. 
On the other hand, I love to fish the late fall and early winter salmon run on the Saranac river in the Adirondacks.  There, I am usually fishing in water that is arounf 38-40 degrees and air temps well below 30 (if its any warmer, there is too much of a crowd - and I hate crowds when I have a flyrod in my hands).  Only on days like that do I take the time to constantly straighten, and straighten, and straighten.... Well, you get my point.  Just trying to clarify, Cider!

Hope this helps.

[Thor]

As Trevor noted, wind knots are caused by tailing loops.  Two of the greatest fly casters (Lefty Kreh and Ed Jaworowski) have a similar take on tailing loops, although they cite slightly different causes and corrections. 

According to Lefty, 99% of all tailing loops are caused by the caster pushing the line straight ahead at the end of the forward cast, without doing anything else.  To illustrate this concept, Lefty offers the example of hitting a billiard ball into the bumper with the cue ball in a perfectly straight line.  The number ball will rebound and crash into the cue ball because they are exactly in line with each other.  The same thing happens with the loop in your fly line.

Lefty suggests dipping the rod tip slightly right after you stop your forward cast.  When he says slightly, he means dipping it by about 1/8 inch or less.  This can be accomplished by using the slightest downward pressure from your thumb on the handle at the end of your forward cast.

Ed J. claims the tailing loop is usually caused by pushing your hand straight ahead (even slightly) at the end of your cast, especially when looking for extra distance.  This forces the rod tip to transcribe or trace a slightly concave arc in the sky.  The line follows this downward then upward movement, causing a collision (Note that both instructors refer to the line colliding with itself).  The common cause of nearly all tailng loops (and wind knots) is the final tip motion. 

Ed's solution is that the rod tip must have the slightest convex curve in the final tip movement as it straightens.  This is accomplished by giving your hand a very slightly curving motion at the end of the stroke.  Ed also recognizes the slight downward pressure of the thumb as a potential solution, but he suggests that if you push too far down, you will open up your loop, which could affect your distance. 

It sounds like the bottom line is not to let your loop collide with itself.  By eliminating this contact, I guess there is no way for the wind knot to form.