WHAT DO YOU THINK THE BUCK LIMIT IN NY SHOULD BE SHOULD THERE BE A POINT RESTRIC

[deerslayer92163]

well lets see i used to live and hunt in the adirondacks were you were lucky to see a deer once or twice a season an antler restriction would fire up the locals who live there i guarentee
case in point my brother in law lived and hunted the adirondacks his whole life he died in jan at 45 and never got a deer in his life at least my nephew got to go home with a 5 point after he hunted with me a week that made his fathers day when he got home he was able to see his son with his first deer before his death

[The Polish Pirate]

The current system whereby if you buy the archery or muzzleloader stamp which enables you to take a deer of either sex in addition to the buck tag you receive if you purchase a regular gun season license gives you the opportunity to take (2) two legally antlered deer which I feel is sufficient in my opinion. If 600,000 licenses are sold, it could conceivably be looked at that with each tag the state of NY is willing to sell, they're apparently willing to give up at a minimum, (1) one legally antlered buck ? Harvest counts being what they are and people still complaining that their satisfaction level isn't there, what would happen if more and more deer were killed via bringing more hunters into the equation ? I help those that I hunt with get their deer and we've never had a problem so I can't honestly say I see anything wrong ?? If the hunter expects that they are entitled to a successful harvest because they bought a license .. that may be the disconnect ? There are a lot of components that go into consistent success. There's the luck involved of right place - right time but it isn't always that way. Rotting away in a treestand for a couple of hours with no luck will surely sour the most dedicated. Teaming up with a couple of buddies can surely increase the chances of success. There's certainly no simple answer. I can say though that I know the guys that were consistently successful years ago are still getting deer today. I started tagging along with my father in the early 80's and there was success then and my father is mid-60's now and if he wanted to kill a deer, we'd find a large tract of state land and just work back and forth to each other and by day's end, we'd have some shooting if nothing else. If that wasn't working, we'd get in the truck and drive down the road to another piece of public land. We save the private stuff for sitting mornings and evenings. That's a fact and we hunt in one of the most densely hunted, broken up land .. city-camp loaded .. over-hunted counties going !! I don't see any need to change anything ..

[dawg]

  Instead of antler restrictions why don't we try a separate doe season from buck season. Like Pennsylvania used to do. Imagine how much safer SOUTHERN ZONE Hunting would be if every hunter had to take the time to determine if the deer they saw was a buck or doe. Make  doe season the week prior to normal southern gun season. And yes you still need a DMP. I as a northern zone(Adirondack Resident) am not interested in antler restrictions. Having a camp in Hamilton county and having an eight week season including muzzleloader season have hunted every weekend on a  20000 acre lease. Our camp with an average of 5-8 guys every weekend averages 3-4 bucks for the season. Some are slammers but every year 1 or 2 is a spike or a 3 who are we to tell those that have spent 3 maybe 4 weeks each year that they need to see 3 on 1 side.I hunt both North and south and I choose WHAT I SHOOT Not what the others shoot. I truly believe that If you want to shoot a Slammer then put in the time Its just like fishing If you want to fish 3 times a year than be happy catching rockbass If you want trophy fish or a trophy Buck then spend the TIME ,MONEY AND PERSERVERIENCE TO FOLLOW YOUR DREAM  Who are we or NYS for the matter to tell these kids that there first buck has to be the QUALITY THAT THEY SHOT, and not a spike horn or a 3 point In my opinion QDM is BS Spend the time and do your homework the deer are there.

[crowkiller]

i say kill all deer all they do is run into cars and eat bushes in peoples front yards

[doctariAFC]

There is no simple answer to the "problem".

But, is there truly a problem?  Herds are thriving, perhaps too much so in some areas.  We do have a new deer management approach, instituted in 2005, but effects of these changes wil  not be felt or realized until either this year or next.

One thing that we all seem to agree upon is that education is the answer, not legislation.  That is a very comforting thing to know.

We will be working on this one over the next few months.  At our meeting last night, much was discussed concerning delivering better education to newbies to the sport. 

Its not an easy thing, and, whatever change is considered MUST have the benefit to the herds first and foremost.  If we happen to also address hunter desire in the process, that's a bonus, but the herds come first.  Lots to dig through, analyze and hash out. 

This is good.  Excellent back and forths, and ideas/ input, which is productive to boot!

Excellent. 

[FISHANDBEER]

Good luck with this one guys.... I am from Vermont where this issue has already been resolved. We got QDM shoved down our throats for 5 years as an experiment. They made a law stating that a buck must have a fork with at least a one inch horn off the main beam. Most of the deer taken by the people that I know in the last 2 years were shot before the hunter was sure he had a legal buck in his sights. They found out they were legal when they got to them. I had one buck that came out in front of my tree stand 3 evenings in a row. I am sure this was a legal buck, but value my ability to hunt and chose not to take this deer. I am not blessed with the best eyesight and even with a 7 power scope could not tell if the second horn was in excess of an inch. this deer was less than one hundred yards away. The old law was one horn 3 inches or longer for a legal buck. I can tell what 3 inches is at 100 yards, but not what 1 inch is at that distance. Point being, keep vocal!!! If you don't want to be told what to do, tell your lawmakers. We got stuck with a 5 year experiment over here because the regular Vermont hunters never really spoke their minds, but the ones that did speak up got their way....Look at our buck kill figures for the last 2 years. You guy kill more bucks in most of your counties than we kill statewide. I now want to hunt in your state because they screwed up ours so bad.
The thing that really upsets me is that for 10bucks you can apply for an antlers tag that allows you to shoot that 50 pound button buck, but when he becomes a 110 pound spike you cannot take him then. We have a late muzzle season over here and the deer then have their winter coats. It's very hard to tell the little ones from the adults at this time of the year, therefore many of the deer they are trying to protect get taken. I like to eat the venison that I harvest, and that 110 pound spike is the best eating deer in the woods. Now I have to wait till he is 6 or 8 points, old , tough, and game to take him. This sends the wrong message to the anti's. We now look like "horn" hunters, not hunters looking to harvest some food for their families....
Good luck and stay organized or you will be dealt the same fate we are dealing with here, and I don't think you will like the results. They did this over here because they thought with bigger bucks local hunters will no longer venture out of state to hunt for big deer. From what I have seen it is having the reverse effect. I have never hunted out of state, but am planning to now as are all of my friends. Guess the "talking heads" figured that one out all wrong.......   

[tughillmcd]

If we happen to also address hunter desire in the process, that's a bonus, but the herds come first. 

Doc, this is the kind of statement that gets people so upset with the "Federations". It is not a bonus, both must be considered together. There is more than one way any problem can be addressed. The message sent when hunter desire must take the back seat and is not included into the solution is we have no voice, no input, and only the elitists of the federations get to decide what is best for the herds and the hunters. I am in no way implying the health of the herd is not in the best interest of the hunter, I agree, but the lack of good information to the masses leaves people feeling the federations are acting like the legislature, deciding what is best for everyone without listening to the people. It seams the federation has many sources of data and information not readily available to the public. Maybe this is a false impression, maybe the same information is out there for all to see, but most don't know where to look. Education is very important, and people will adjust attitudes toward change when the information is presented correctly. QDM and AR are perfect examples. We have been reading for 10 years now that these are the answer to a healthier buck population, bigger and more bucks for all, so why wouldn't people believe this is the right thing to do. Data now indicates this may not be totally true, and some aspects of QDM may not work and actually have a negative impact on the herds, ie AR. People hearing this and reading about it are changing attitudes. I don't believe the federations are just hearing this for the first time this month or last, and the rest of the people are just starting to hear it now. Where does the average guy or gal go and find this. It must be published somewhere.

The federations mission is to be the voice of the sportsmen and women of this state. We may not agree unanimously what is the best solution to each issue, but we all strive for the same basic thing, the opportunity to persue our sports and protect their future. Education is truly the answer, and somehow the federation needs to make the information they have more available to everyone and maybe they will alter their thinking as they get more facts and understand why the federation takes some of the positions it does, even if they don't agree, they would see the data you are using to support your position.

This is going to be tough to figure out but when I read statement like " It isn't 1965 anymore and modern deer management has come a long way. It has hit a wall with the old guys who run these federationswho, most likely, are too old to hunt anymore. Move over for the new generation of hunter who is more conservation-minded and educated. " (from Letters to the Editor New York Outdoor News 6/29/2007), then the federations are not doing a good enough job conveying the data they have as to why they oppose AR. Your article does address this issue, but did the author of the letter have the the information the federation knew? The reader states the new generation of hunter is more conservation-minded and educated, and I bet the federations believe they are more conservation-minded and educated. Who is right, I bet they both are as conservation-minded as the other, but the problem is with the education, they both don't have the same data and information. The job of the federations in not only to lobby for the sporting community, but to be sure we all have as much of the information available as possible to make informed decisions.

I don't know how to accomplish this, but more data and information needs to be presented to everyone.

[doctariAFC]

Doc, this is the kind of statement that gets people so upset with the "Federations". It is not a bonus, both must be considered together. There is more than one way any problem can be addressed. The message sent when hunter desire must take the back seat and is not included into the solution is we have no voice, no input, and only the elitists of the federations get to decide what is best for the herds and the hunters. I am in no way implying the health of the herd is not in the best interest of the hunter, I agree, but the lack of good information to the masses leaves people feeling the federations are acting like the legislature, deciding what is best for everyone without listening to the people. It seams the federation has many sources of data and information not readily available to the public. Maybe this is a false impression, maybe the same information is out there for all to see, but most don't know where to look. Education is very important, and people will adjust attitudes toward change when the information is presented correctly. QDM and AR are perfect examples. We have been reading for 10 years now that these are the answer to a healthier buck population, bigger and more bucks for all, so why wouldn't people believe this is the right thing to do. Data now indicates this may not be totally true, and some aspects of QDM may not work and actually have a negative impact on the herds, ie AR. People hearing this and reading about it are changing attitudes. I don't believe the federations are just hearing this for the first time this month or last, and the rest of the people are just starting to hear it now. Where does the average guy or gal go and find this. It must be published somewhere.

The federations mission is to be the voice of the sportsmen and women of this state. We may not agree unanimously what is the best solution to each issue, but we all strive for the same basic thing, the opportunity to persue our sports and protect their future. Education is truly the answer, and somehow the federation needs to make the information they have more available to everyone and maybe they will alter their thinking as they get more facts and understand why the federation takes some of the positions it does, even if they don't agree, they would see the data you are using to support your position.

This is going to be tough to figure out but when I read statement like " It isn't 1965 anymore and modern deer management has come a long way. It has hit a wall with the old guys who run these federationswho, most likely, are too old to hunt anymore. Move over for the new generation of hunter who is more conservation-minded and educated. " (from Letters to the Editor New York Outdoor News 6/29/2007), then the federations are not doing a good enough job conveying the data they have as to why they oppose AR. Your article does address this issue, but did the author of the letter have the the information the federation knew? The reader states the new generation of hunter is more conservation-minded and educated, and I bet the federations believe they are more conservation-minded and educated. Who is right, I bet they both are as conservation-minded as the other, but the problem is with the education, they both don't have the same data and information. The job of the federations in not only to lobby for the sporting community, but to be sure we all have as much of the information available as possible to make informed decisions.

I don't know how to accomplish this, but more data and information needs to be presented to everyone.

You are correct, but its deeper than that.  I believe through the continued commercialization/ captialization of our sports, we may be damaging the foundation, inadvertently, of Conservation.

We have new generations of hunters and anglers basically brought up by the hunting and fishing shows that have proliferated in recent years.  I remember when the only shows were strictly fishing shows, Bill Dance and Orlando Wilson, and that was about it.  Now, we have so many different hunting and fishing shows, all basically showing the hunts, featuring the latest products, and in all honesty, focusing very little on conservation principles. 
 
As I stated in the Commentary piece, Conservation Principles put the benefit of the resources and wildlife FIRST.  I put small stock in hunter satisfaction, as this changes seemingly every single season.  Think about it.  Several years ago, pre-DECALs, we had numerous complaints from hunters not receiving doe tags.  This got compounded by Cornel University's study on deer related crop damages across NYS, being pegged at $25 Million Annually at the time.  We also had huge concerns over the DECALS system and privacy matters.  Unrelated, but a concern.  The DEC moved forward, with the endorsement from the Federations and NYSCC to improve licensing and information storage, a re-structuring of the tagging system, as to afford more tags to hunters, primarily antlerless tags, in an attempt to reduce the herds causing crop damage and losses to farmers.  We began to see DMPs given away like candy.  I remember the first year of DECALS.  I got 3 DMPs.  Two at the first drawing, then a third when more permits were issued that November.  The following year, more DMPs were issued, and we had a record harvest (2003).  Then, 2 years later, in 2004, after the massive DMP issuance, hunters after the '04 season began to gripe about too many does being harvested.  Not seeing any deer.  I remember the Big Game Public Hearing held at Blasdell Elementary School in February 2005 discussing the changes to Southern Zone Hunting Seasons.  This included Saturday opener, potentially injecting an early ML season in the middle of archery (for antlerless only, NO BOWHUNTING for that 7 days), etc, etc.  This meeting was SRO, and the hunters in the audience, when Jim Snyder went to the podium to address the crowded room, began yelling "Get a Rope!"  and "String 'em up!". 

Now, hunter attitude and desire is for bigger bucks closer to home.  Heck, when the DEC cut DMPs by 35% in 2005, many of those same guys screaming at the DEC for "slaughtering the deer" began whining about not getting a doe tag!

So, I put very little stock or consideration in personal hunter desires.  I ignore them completely, quite frankly, when a benefit to the wildlife and resources do not exist at all.  That's the disciplines of Conservation - removing personal desire in favor of the resources, as everything that we act upon must be for the future, rather than the here and now.

Also, just to clarify, for those who may be confused, the federation is not some group at the county level separate from the clubs.  The federations ARE the local clubs.  Each club has a voice, and that voice is as loud or as quiet as that club's membership ranks/ counts.  For instance, a club with 500 members carries more weight at the ballot box than a club which has 50 members, despite each club having 2 delegates to the federation. 

In terms of information.  I agree.  We do have a lot more information than the average sportsman.  Of course, the information we have is also available and provided to every federation member club.  Our minutes are posted on the ECFSC website.  We try to encapsulate every piece of information presented to the federation during our monthly meetings into these minutes.  The minutes are circulated to the delegates of each club, and it is the club delegate's responsibility to pass along to their respective membership.  It is MY responsibility to compile the minutes and transmit these to the delegates, officers, board of directors, in a timely fashion, which is typically 2 weeks after the meeting.  In the case of the ECFSC minutes, these are also sent to the NYS DEC, biologists, managers, law enforcement, directors, etc.  Additionally, these minutes are sent on to several State Assemblymen and State Senators.  THese documents are available for public access on the ECFSC website.

I hate to sound like copping out here, but I am but one voice in the wilderness and I can do so much (sometimes overextending and trying to do more).  I was approached last night to do even more, which I must seriously consider, and it is one tough decision, to say the least.  However, the very best any and every sportsman or woman can do is to JOIN A FEDERATED CLUB!  That's at least a start, as the membership dues certainly help keep that club operating, providing activities and educational opportunties for the people in their neck of the woods.

But it isn't enough to simply join.  Attend club monthly meetings regularly.  Read the minutes, ask questions.  VOTE on issues up for the vote.  Encourage others to join and get involved/ educated, too.

Its not a perfect system, but it works.  And its the only system which is effective when it comes to dealing with Albany.  I'll explain that one more in depth later.

Also, this extends to every federated club out there.  I started a web business to address the communication challenges, and to promote the great outdoors.  We offer web site solutions that range from FREE to @ $20/ month.  Our new tool sets are now available and in production, and advertising is actually happening starting next month.  Each and every federated club should have a web site presence.  Every federation should as well.  We have several clubs as customers, and they are pretty happy.  They've seen membership increase, and awareness of their public events improve dramatically.

But the bottom line is no one can spoon-feed the information all the time.  It requires a little ambition on the part of the individual, and a willingness to get involved.  Its not a ton of time (unless you assume a leadership role, then its some serious work, without financial remuneration) but its time worth finding, as if you can find the time to hunt, and find the time to complain, you should be able to find the time to give back, so that the future generations have the opportunity we have today.

[tughillmcd]

Doc, I am not knocking yours or others efforts, believe me I know how thankless it can feel sometimes, my thought on education may not have been as clear as I would have liked them to be.
Yours is just one of the federations around the state and you pass information between each other all the time which is good. Is it possible to add links to the federation web pages for supporting data when available, along with the meeting minutes? If there is a report on AR and a link can be provided people can read it for themselfs and make a better informed decision. Meeting minutes are condensed overviews of issues discussed at the meeting, but a reference to the supporting data presented gives the individual the opportunity to understand the context of the discussion and or decision.

I agree some will complain about something this year and next year complain about the exact opposite. That is the minority. Don't sell the majority short. Most are not as vocal as the cronic complainer, they are capable of making good solid informed decisions based on fact and not just emotion. I am not asking you to go spend a lot more time on this, or to spoon feed anything, just point us to the supporting information so are better informed as a group.

And yes, I will be bringing this up at the Oswego County Federation meeting next week also.

[doctariAFC]

Doc, I am not knocking yours or others efforts, believe me I know how thankless it can feel sometimes, my thought on education may not have been as clear as I would have liked them to be.
Yours is just one of the federations around the state and you pass information between each other all the time which is good. Is it possible to add links to the federation web pages for supporting data when available, along with the meeting minutes? If there is a report on AR and a link can be provided people can read it for themselfs and make a better informed decision. Meeting minutes are condensed overviews of issues discussed at the meeting, but a reference to the supporting data presented gives the individual the opportunity to understand the context of the discussion and or decision.

I agree some will complain about something this year and next year complain about the exact opposite. That is the minority. Don't sell the majority short. Most are not as vocal as the cronic complainer, they are capable of making good solid informed decisions based on fact and not just emotion. I am not asking you to go spend a lot more time on this, or to spoon feed anything, just point us to the supporting information so are better informed as a group.

And yes, I will be bringing this up at the Oswego County Federation meeting next week also.

Great questions.  In fact, Erie County is starting to get better at that.  Hopefully our web tools on the ECFSC site will improve.  Our webmaster has gotten much better and is doing more, for certain.  I also provide some info to reference in links and such when they cannot get to their FTP folder.  We are a little different in Erie County.  I'm trying to toot my own horn, but I receive meeting minutes from other federations, and I know exactly what you mean.  Summaries.  Take a gander at the ECFSC minutes.  I try to capture everyhting possible.  We also have a ton of hard copy info included in our minutes, actual letters, actual reports.  Of course, these can indeed bloat the document. 20-30 pages sometimes.  The minutes are a good source of info, but in some instances these are merely guidelines for the delegates to know what was discussed at the last meeting, so that some things get done, and they have a history of what happened, come next meeting.  Its challenging.  Then there's the legal aspect of the minutes.  I believe most every federation is a non-profit 501c3 corp.  In order to maintain this tax exempt status, we do have to follow certain rules by law, including keeping minutes of our meetings, with general meeting minutes available for public consumption (maybe  not immediate availability) and keep board meeting minutes as well.  These prove our organization is active.  We also cannot put certain items of interest in our minutes, especially related to the political.  But now I'm going down the legal road concerning tax status and the like.  Separate issues.

We have a number of things we're trying to pull together.  This is WeLoveOutdoors.com talking now, not the federation officer.  Our community is geared to be the place for one-stop shopping of info, while having each member club giving its own voice and independent presence.  Fun part is getting people to put the info up.  Sure, they'll send to me for posting, but I am one man and cannot post everything.,  Way too much to do.  Our tools offer easy self administration, without the neded for programming skills.  You can lead a horse to water, right?  e are also working on a couple information collection and communication tools.  But, again, we need the information entered in the database for the information to become available.  I simply have too few hours in a day to do it all.

We can speak more on this, PM me and I can share with you some of what I am trying to do, as this is exactly what you're speaking of.

[bussman]

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE BUCK LIMIT IN NY SHOULD BE SHOULD THERE BE A POINT RESTRIC