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Author Topic: Steelhead & Domestic Rainbow Trout Strains discussion  (Read 56412 times)

esox v

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Re: Steelhead & Domestic Rainbow Trout Strains discussion
« Reply #90 on: Nov 04, 2011, 05:26 PM »
esox  see   what  you  can  find  on  how  hatcherys    seperate  a  skaminia   from  a  washington  strain  ....  another   question  if  a  domestic  is    artificailly   forced  to  spawn   using light   and  temps   to  fool it's  body  into  believeing  it's     spring   or  late  winter  ....why  would  it   continue  to  spawn  in  the  natural   fall   when  those    forced   factors  are  now   gone?  another  words     fall is  no longer  false   spring  it's  fall  .....  and  the light   is   not  getting longer  but getting  shorter .....   the   bio  clock  should  go  back  to  it's  natural  state    ...as   it  merely   reacted  to     the  light  and  temps   being made  to  mimic   spring
I agree with you.... I asked that specific question....  That's what I was told by the region 7 biologist .... Doesn't make sense to me ?? A random call on the phone he could have just been blowing me off who knows ??
"There is no crueler tyranny than that which is perpetrated
under the shield of law and in the name of justice."
--Charles de Montesquieu (1689-1755)
For tyranny to work some idiots are required…

The most dangerous thing any nation faces..  is a citizenry capable of trusting a liar to lead them....

fishgalore

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Re: Steelhead & Domestic Rainbow Trout Strains discussion
« Reply #91 on: Nov 04, 2011, 05:27 PM »
Flip Flop Flip Flop Flip Flop  ::) ;D

Not necessarily, when you study you can flip when the facts indicate you should: otherwise you flop!! I'm pretty certain almost everyone that has read and interacted on this topic has learned at least something that they didn't know before. If they had to flip does that make them a flop? Uh-uh, keep your minds open boys for we haven't arrived yet.

fishgalore

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Re: Steelhead & Domestic Rainbow Trout Strains discussion
« Reply #92 on: Nov 04, 2011, 05:38 PM »
Skamania steelhead spawn in the spring they just enter the river early.... One of the key factors you will see repeating in systems with Fall spawning fish is the domestic or hatchery raised captive broodstock... There are many different strains spring and autum spawning rainbows..
 Do a search on the London strain of Rainbow trout. see what you can dig up....................

this is also an interesting read...
http://mdc4.mdc.mo.gov/Documents/11939.pdf  

More to read.........great (sigh). At least I will be able to better interact with the material sometime next week. Better yet, fishing up there next weekend!

I tied flies today while sitting on a site to protect the public. It's boring when there isn't much chance of someone walking through barracaded roadways, sidewalks or other caution taped areas. It's amazing more people don't get injured after a storm like this. 50% of cars that could have turned right or left to a safer roadway choose instead to drive through a barracade and risk injury from downed lines and trees. If you showed them a picture of that street and the one about 100' away they would choose to go down the clear roadway (on paper) every time. People just don't think.

Conclusion, this thread is for thinkers and not robots who just believe what they are told or make decisions based merely upon convenience or what is expedient. 50% chose the expedient way yesterday. 

lpv89

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Re: Steelhead & Domestic Rainbow Trout Strains discussion
« Reply #93 on: Nov 04, 2011, 07:15 PM »
i  got   a  picture  of  mutley!!!!



i  seen  the   red  on  his  throat  so  i  was  thinking cut  throat  ,  then  i  seen  the  bright   red   on  his  head  and   his   stocky  body  i   figured  domstic  ......  yup  this  is  a   cross  mute   fer  sure

i saw this and started to laugh histerically
Fish on!!!!!!!! When i get that big one the world will know.

fishgalore

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Re: Steelhead & Domestic Rainbow Trout Strains discussion
« Reply #94 on: Nov 05, 2011, 04:24 AM »
Apparently, this discussion is going on over at SC but not on the same level as here. I may have given them something to chew on over there.   http://www.salmoncrazy.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53300-let-the-good-times-roll/

fishgalore

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Re: Steelhead & Domestic Rainbow Trout Strains discussion
« Reply #95 on: Nov 05, 2011, 08:02 AM »
bob  i  think  what  it  is  , people  that  have  a    real  interest  in   steelhead  salmon  and  trout    are     seeing   traits    becoming  shared   and  not    just  used  by  any  one  strain!   it  appears  to  be  happening   threw  out  the  great  lakes  and  not  just  here....

this   altering  the   spawning  time  table   has  caused  alarm  for  me  now    that i  have  had  time  to  think  about  it  ....  severeal  questions  loom ...!  why  bother  to  alter  the   spawning ?  2 are  these  fish  released  in other  waters  and  if   just  released  in ontario  ,can't  they  travel upstreams ....  we  have   all  seen  salmon  go  threw  the  locks  and  end  up   way  above  fulton  and  in  black  creek !  waterhouse  creek  and  so on ....3  will  this   cause   problems   with   wild  reprodoucing  fish ????  i'm  not  just  talking  the  ontario  fishery  here ..... 

I'm thinking the answer to number 3 is happening already. That's what you will find when I read the book and is part of the whole problem.  We have tampered to the point where it has hurt the ecosystem as much as it has helped. It's a paradoxical situation.

And I agree that people do have an interest because we are fisherman we want to be able to know what it is that we are catching. You are spot on!

Simplecarppieguy

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Re: Steelhead & Domestic Rainbow Trout Strains discussion
« Reply #96 on: Nov 05, 2011, 04:42 PM »
Now what turn has this thing taken??
Had a nice talk with one of the fish techs from the Hatchery this morning.. Very nice lady. You guys should have been there.. It would have put this topic to sleep! :-*
16 kings, 100 dropped!! Its not all about how many you get to the bank, its about the fun and friendship!

fishgalore

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Re: Steelhead & Domestic Rainbow Trout Strains discussion
« Reply #97 on: Nov 07, 2011, 04:41 AM »
Just when you think this topic is dead some idiot comes up with, yet, another example that spins your head.

Thanks griz for posting this bit of info. Now we won't know what we are catching again!! (slight bit of sarcasm)
http://blog.syracuse.com/outdoors/2011/11/salmon_acres.html


So how is the fish in that 1st picture a Steelhead? If it's colored like a Rainbow it's got to be a Rainbow. Then secondly, what traits reveal that it is a Steelhead? It's color............. size............... shape,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, not spawning............. exactly what, pray tell, determined that it's a Steelhead and not a Rainbow? Did they do a genetic test? Or are they sadly mistaken, which for an average joe on the river could be a costly mistake with the DEC, depending upon what other fish you kept!  Looks like someone could be fined in the near future since the ID problem seems to be in full tilt. Heck maybe OIN is in kahoots with the DEC on misidentifying to help line the States coffers (dripping with sarcasm).  Gillripper1 said this issue for him means he will never have a "Rainbow" & an obvious chrome Steelhead in his possession EVER at the same time on a stringer. Now that's coming from a guy that's been doing this over 16 years up there. 

Curious questions will lead to some more curious questions. Who's right and who's wrong anyway? Or are we all right or maybe all wrong? So far it depends on WHO you talk to. So.......................has anyone asked the DEC, you know...........da man: what is a Domestic Rainbow? We've all been going to the wrong source for our answers! Shame on us! (more sarcasm)
Oh, and you SC guys are even more confused than the MFF clan.

Simplecarppieguy

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Re: Steelhead & Domestic Rainbow Trout Strains discussion
« Reply #98 on: Nov 07, 2011, 06:03 AM »
Just never have a "Rainbow" & an obvious chrome Steelhead in his possession EVER at the same time on a stringer. Now that's coming from a guy that's been doing this over 16 years up there.  Bob you can only have one as the book reads One Rainbow/steelhead over 21 inches. So if its a steelhead or a rainbow you can only keep one!! End of Story there...

 WHO you talk to. So.......................has anyone asked the DEC, you know...........da man: what is a Domestic Rainbow? We've all been going to the wrong source for our answers! Shame on us! (more sarcasm)
Oh, and you SC guys are even more confused than the MFF clan.
Esoxv and myself spent 40 mins talk to a biologist who works at the Hatchery on Saturday, she was doing a creel servey. She said that there are domestic fall spawning rainbows in the lake and the River systems.. She also said that a good fisherman can tell the difference between the two fish.. Hence Steelhead and Domestic Rainbows.
16 kings, 100 dropped!! Its not all about how many you get to the bank, its about the fun and friendship!

esox v

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Re: Steelhead & Domestic Rainbow Trout Strains discussion
« Reply #99 on: Nov 07, 2011, 06:29 AM »
Esoxv and myself spent 40 mins talk to a biologist who works at the Hatchery on Saturday, she was doing a creel servey. She said that there are domestic fall spawning rainbows in the lake and the River systems.. She also said that a good fisherman can tell the difference between the two fish.. Hence Steelhead and Domestic Rainbows.
I agree with everything that was said.... but.... She was a fish tec i believe.. Not a biologist
"There is no crueler tyranny than that which is perpetrated
under the shield of law and in the name of justice."
--Charles de Montesquieu (1689-1755)
For tyranny to work some idiots are required…

The most dangerous thing any nation faces..  is a citizenry capable of trusting a liar to lead them....

fishgalore

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Re: Steelhead & Domestic Rainbow Trout Strains discussion
« Reply #100 on: Nov 07, 2011, 09:10 AM »
Esoxv and myself spent 40 mins talk to a biologist who works at the Hatchery on Saturday, she was doing a creel servey. She said that there are domestic fall spawning rainbows in the lake and the River systems.. She also said that a good fisherman can tell the difference between the two fish.. Hence Steelhead and Domestic Rainbows.

So Frank, do you mean to say I'm not a good fisherman?   LMAO...........only kidding. Maybe inexperienced in so far as the SR is concerned but I'm a fast learner (or trouble maker with all my questions).

bcons

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Re: Steelhead & Domestic Rainbow Trout Strains discussion
« Reply #101 on: Nov 07, 2011, 10:42 AM »
I agree with everything that was said.... but.... She was a fish tec i believe.. Not a biologist

Personally I think Esox & SGC need to learn to ice fish, QUIT BEING SKEERED!  Leanr to catch some edible fish like perch & eyes QUIT arguing bout trout  :P :P :P
I was berated for fishing & asked recently by a PETA type.  You don't keep fish do you?  I responded "No I don't like aquariums. I just treat them like a quick haircut, & take a little of the sides"

fishfishfishfish

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Re: Steelhead & Domestic Rainbow Trout Strains discussion
« Reply #102 on: Nov 07, 2011, 02:07 PM »
Ok now I'm convinced that James Rainbow colored fish is not a Rainbow at all. Here's the reason why:- "also the bows have a lot of spots through out the face and a Steelhead typically will not". Aaron Shooks (Steelhead expert and guide) answer to my question is as simple as that.  http://www.hobofishing.com/

Look closely at the picture and in particular at the middle ?Rainbow? or ?Steelhead?. STEELHEAD! I zoomed in on Tinypic and there are NO spots on it's face............none!!!
"We" that is all of us that are interested in this topic, just might have hit the jackpot!!! Some may be happy about it and some might be angry about it but it is what it is. Might I conclude case closed? NO because the learning is not over and "we" have not arrived to a full and complete understanding of this species. There is more to learn just watch and see.
If anyone would like me to forward a copy of the picture so you can zoom in as I did just let me know. I guarantee you will see for yourself!




 i would not get too hung up on using the spots on the head as the big factor in deciding if it is a domestic rainbow or steelhead. as your  steelhead expert says "typically" .  looking at pics of chrome steel  a fair number have  spots on the head , and  i have one looks like a dom  rainbow in all way except no spots. if you want i can post some pics when i get a chance.  imho that one looks like a young ?2 year rainbow , older fish will  start to look more  like the typical fish of the strain .

It can be easy to id a fish if it dsplays  all the  characteristics of the strain but there are many times  when it  is in a grey zone and the best most of us could say is  it could be this or it could be that.

otherwise good discussion and looking forward to read your links whe i have a chance.




lpv89

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Re: Steelhead & Domestic Rainbow Trout Strains discussion
« Reply #103 on: Nov 07, 2011, 02:49 PM »
im waiting for my buddy to email me the pictures from saturday. got a handful of steel/bow pics
Fish on!!!!!!!! When i get that big one the world will know.

fishgalore

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Re: Steelhead & Domestic Rainbow Trout Strains discussion
« Reply #104 on: Nov 07, 2011, 04:41 PM »
a  fish  tec  does  readings   collects  data   and  works  in  the  hatchery  !  

no  one  is  saying  theres  not  fall  spawning  domestic  rainbows  !!!!   michagan  is  saying   hey   we  have   fall  spawning  steel  now  too  .....  i  could  care  less   who  can   id  what  ....  or  thinks  they  can  at least    but  i   am   VERY  VERY  interested  in  the  fall  spawning  and   why   steelhead  would   be   doing  it  !   i  have   read  a  few    things  that  west  coast  fish  have  done  this  too  !!!!  

i  really  don't  understand  the  hostility    just  because   A LOT   OF  FISHERMAN,AREA GUIDES,AND PEOPLE  WITH MANY  YEARS  OF  EXPERANCE   are  saying  something  ain't  adding  up  ....  we  want  to  find  out  why  andd  what  .....

our   fishery   is  40  years  old  it's  still  a experament!  if  your   content   with   what  you  catch  and  what  you  want  to   call it   and  the  explanations  you  have  ...good  for  you!   god  bless  ya  ....   but  theres  nothing  wrong with  the  others   wanting  to learn more   ,understand  more  ,  talk  about  it  and   research  it  .....

so  what  if  one  person   really   could  100%  id   every  fish  (  which   every   biologist   admits  is  impossiable)    but    for  the  sake  of  argueement    one  guy  can ,  what  so  wrong  with    me  or  bob    and  the  rest  of  the   gang   saying  ,  we  can't  but  were   going  to  try  to learn  as  much  as  we  can????  it  you  had  a     brain   tumor  (god   forbit)  do  you  want  the  doctoor  that  says   yup i know  everything  there  is  to know  about  them   ...or   a  doctor  that   says    yeah  i know  alot   but  i'm   learning  more  and  researching  more   everyday?

 just   really   bewildered  why     tring  to learn  more  and    researching  and  discussing  would  upset  someone   




I'm interested in IDing on the practical side for obvious reasons. On the other hand, on the technical side, it is a very complex and interesting subject that requires some thinking. Couple that with the fact that I like to write and articulate my thoughts so others can understand my thoughts and arguments (in the sense of my position not opposition or banter) and some may think I'm a monster. But that is not the case, at least, that is not my intention. Thinking critically is part of my personality. I guess it's possible to change but not likely. I'm sort of set in my ways. (bcons we're not arguing in the sense of fighting but rather intellectual discussion IMO).

On SC some are noting the spawn periods as if they are set in stone. But I think we have gotten beyond that point and recognize that that's also not as clean cut as we'd like to think. Plenty of evidence has been noted to that effect. Cross breeding is another matter which I do believe has impacted this issue. Again, on SC some don't believe it's had any significant effect.  I'm not willing personally, like Trapper, to just accept some simplistic answers when there is enough credible evidence to question it's validity. Moreover, it seems to me to be a great topic to discuss as much as any other on this site.

If you don't agree and don't really like the topic no one says you have to read it or comment but certainly you are welcome to do so, and especially if you disagree. Just present your argument(s) in logical and clearly understandable terms. It's like a tug of war sometimes; but eventually we'll tire or get to a point where it's been beat to death. I, however, don't believe we've reached that point yet. Not even close.

 



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