MyFishFinder Forum
My Fish Finder Main => General Fishing Discussion => Topic started by: chrisfrank on May 20, 2004, 12:39 AM
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What is everyones opinion on gut hooked fish? Since i was a kid i was told that you cut the line as close to the hook as possible and let it go, the hook will rust out. I never really believed it, because i cant imagine that a hook would rust quickly enough to disintegrate, and i never thought a fish would live more then a few days with a hook in its esophagus. So what does everyone think? Here's one article i found on the subject:
http://www.outdoorfrontiers.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=73
Even though skeptical, i cut the line short and release fish that i can't legally keep. Anything gut hooked that is legal i keep. I also use circle hooks frequently when baitfishing, especially if i am using more then one rod where it is hard to be fast enough to set it fast enough to ensure a liphooking.
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i always try to remove the hook unless its where you cant see the hook but other then that i cut the line and i have seen fish the were hooked deep and caught them again the next year the fish had very unusual markings and was easy to remember in this farm pond and circle hooks are always a good idea
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Caught lots of fish with rusty old hooks in their gullets. I've also caught them with a good peice of mono hanging out ot their mouths. I trim this off and send them home to mama.
FM
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chrisfrank,
The article you pointed to was interesting. I agreed with you before reading it and now am even more convinced.
Like you I had always heard, and never really believed, that hooks would corrode away in a short period of time. Glad to see there were some studies done to determine how long the hooks do last. Not just because it confirmed my thoughts but because it's good to have up to date information to rely on instead of just popular and sometimes incorrect beliefs.
I have had good results reaching through the gills on a couple of largemouth bass to gently free stuck hooks. I also find myself mashing the barbs on my hooks down more and more and will be looking at barbless and circle hooks the next time I buy.
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Interesting article....nice find! Manitoba is all barbless, a practice which likely leads to far less CR mortality. However, the notion of leaving some line on the hook if you can't get it out is certainly new - and one I'll adopt. I wonder how to get this information to the resources people......hmmmmm - I think I feel a need to make contact.
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Generally hooks will break due to stomach acid, even stainless steel. They don't really rust out. Stomach acid has a PH of 1, which means it is even more corrosive than sulfuric acid in batteries.
According to a recent department of natural resources study in wisconsin, 56% of fish survive when deeply hooked when the line is cut, while only 11% when the hook is removed. If a fish is heavily bleeding, those numbers are thrown out.
Barbless hooks, in numerous studies, are shown to decrease fish mortality by less than 1%.
I catch a lot of fish in the rivers around here with tons of flies and leaders stuck to them. Some of them seem okay, even though I'm sure it hinders them. Some of them die in tangles of fly leader. I have seen similiar problems with trout and pike in lakes with numerous lures and line attached. Just use heavy enough line when fishing to minimize breakoffs, and you can safely fish. When you bait fish for any species, don't allow them to have time to swallow the hook. This way you can safely bait fish with no higher a mortality than properly fished flies or lures.
Probably what matters way more than what you use is how you handle fish. Bass, catfish, and walleye are fairly hardy, but should be handled gently still and kept in the water as much as possible. Trout and pike, trout especially, are more prone to injury when improperly handled. With trout, since they don't have massive amounts of protective slime or thick scales, you should handle them as little as possible. In fact, I don't even net my trout, and I only take pics of big ones, and if I can't get them to hold still or the camera is too far away, I don't take a pic. The memory is good enough for me. And if our fish spit the hook at the bank out in front of us, we call it a "quick release" when we're trout fishing the rivers. It counts as a catch for us in this situation, since we don't want to handle the fish too much.
You really need to be gentle with trout, pike too. Keep them in the water as much as possible, and touch them as little as possible. I feel really awful when I kill a fish, which doesn't happen very often since I go out of my way to be careful. Do this and catch and release will have little mortality no matter what gear you use.
Tyler
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Generally hooks will break due to stomach acid, even stainless steel. They don't really rust out. Stomach acid has a PH of 1, which means it is even more corrosive than sulfuric acid in batteries.
Actually Tyler, it is more complicated than that.
Acids and bases fall into two categories: strong and weak. There are seven strong acids: HCl, HBr, HI, H2SO4, HNO3, HClO3, and HClO4. The strength of an acid depends upon the concentration of ionized hydrogen. These acids listed here are nearly 100% ionized when in solution. Weak acids are incompletely ionized when in solution.
In solution, acids generate H+ ions and bases generate OH- ions. Acids are called proton donors and bases are electron donors.
Hydrolysis is the process of salt formation when acids and bases are mixed in solution due to the release of those positively and negatively charged ions. The pH of the solution depends upon the strength of the acids and bases. If you mix a strong acid and a strong base the pH = 7.0. If you mix a weak acid and a strong base, the pH > 7.0. If you mix a strong acid and a weak base, the pH < 7.0. If you mix a weak acid and a weak base, the pH depends upon which is stronger. pH is also dependent upon the molarity of the acid.
pH = -log[ H+ ]
What is the pH of 0.0850 M HNO3? Nitric acid is a monoprotic strong acid (it only has one hydrogen ion to donate in solution). [ HNO3 ] = [ H+ ] and pH = - log [ H+ ], so, pH = - log (0.085) = 1.07
Acids corrode active metals. When an acid reacts with a metal, it produces a compound with the cation of the metal and the anion of the acid and hydrogen gas. Thus, weakening the metal and forming rust through oxidation and forming salt deposits.
Sulfuric acid (H2SO4) is the acid found in lead-acid batteries. Like hydrochloric acid (HCl; stomach acid) and nitric acid (HNO3), sulfuric acid is a strong acid and also has a pH of about 1.0. All three are equally corrosive and caustic. However, sulfuric acid is the only strong acid that is diprotic, because it has two ionizable hydrogens. Therefore, sulfuric acid ionizes in two steps while in solution. The first hydrogen loss it acts as a strong acid and the second time it loses a hydrogen in solution it acts as a weak acid.
Stomach digestion works both mechanically and chemically. The mechanical portion is the physical grinding action placed upon the stomach contents when the stomach expands and contracts due to peristaltic motion. Chemical digestion is caused by the pH of the gastric fluids (HCl) as well as pepsin and other enzymes found within the stomach and saliva.
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cider thats to confusing and i took chemistry and had to brak out the notes on that one
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Also mackdaddy - in the study i posted it said "After four months, 78 percent of the hooks were still imbedded". one has to remember that hooks are designed to last and withstand corrosion (one of the reasons i've always been skeptical about guthooked fish surviving). also, must "gut" hooked fish aren't hooked in the stomach. most of the hooks dont make it that far, and end up hooking deep in the throat or esophagus. Also i work at a vet clinic, and see many dogs that eat pieces of metal. Often we hope that the dog will pass it on its on, but it doesnt always. I've seen pieces of metal, toys, nails, and coins pulled out of stomachs weeks later with little damage to them.
Also in the wisconsin study you mentioned "56% of fish survive when deeply hooked when the line is cut, while only 11% when the hook is removed." Any idea of the time period for that? A study in maryland showed a very high survival rate of striped bass as well, but the study only watched them for a few days.
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If I can see the eye of the hook the gill plate method is the best.
You really shouldn't do that. Touching the gills of a fish you intend to release is the biggest mistake one could make! It is no different than someone touching your lungs! Lungs/gills are very fragile and extremely susceptible to infection. Ever hear of someone inhaling a bit of food into a lung and then come down with raging infection? This happens in dogs that eat too fast all the time. They wind up with pnuemonia and many will die if not treated right away with anitbiotics and other drugs to help dissolve the obstruction. Lungs simply cannot handle the stress and inflammation associated with physical contact. The trauma leads to all sorts of infection issues.
If you can't get to the hook by going through the buccal cavity, then leave it be and hope that the hook will either work itself loose or dissolve from natural digestive processes. Don't stick your fingers or anything else in through the gill plates and across the gills!
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Cider I'm going by an article I read some time back that studied the effects of fishing bass with shiner's in Florida. It was in infisherman and they found the bass had a great survival rate using the gill removal method. In fact they recommed it versus cutting the line. The fish they studied had inhaled the hook so only the eye was showing and the fish were tagged and caught again and again. I have just used that method based on the article and obviously haven't tracked the fish I caught and released but if done right it seems quick and painless.
Slipbob, here is the artical you were thinking of.
TJ
http://www.outdoorcanada.ca/offthe_hook.html
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Cider I'm going by an article I read some time back
I don't want to get into an argument with you over this, but I have taken several courses on basic biology, anatomy, physiology, zoology, toxicology, and ichthyology during my college career. I have read many primary research articles on fish biology. I would consider myself to be an expert on the subject.
I have also read many articles regarding safe catch and release methods. None of which recommend touching the gills of a caught fish that is to be released! In fact everyone (from fishermen, conservation officers, PhDs, and fisheries biologists) that I have ever talked to would highly recommend that you don't handle a fish by the gills.
Because you read it in one article in in-fisherman doesn't make it gospel!
In fish, respiration is carried out by means of gills located under the bony plates called opercula. The opercula are there to protect the gills from damage. The walls of the pharynx is perforated by five slit-like openings. The tissue between the slits is called the gill arch, so on each side of the fish there are five gill sits and four gill arches. On the gill arches are filamentous structures (the gills), which are a fragile system of blood vessels covered by a very thin tissue through which the exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide takes place. The gills of a healthy fish are bright red because of the high concentration of oxygen in the blood that is very near the tissue surface. If that gets damaged through physical trauma, then the fish won't be able to take in oxygen (breathe) and it will become highly prone to infection. The gills will appear brown and nectrotic. End result: death!
Just cut the line and leave the hook alone if you can't get it by going through the mouth!
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Cider, I think we all agree with you, just bringing the artical to the masses.
It always bothers me when I see the TV boys gilling fish.
Everyone I talk to says they are not touching gills but you keep
doing it and it's going to happen.
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Cider, I think we all agree with you,
I know, everyone here is pretty good and aware of safe catch and release practices. This isn't the first time this subject has come up.
I just get irritated at the pinheads (including those on tv) that do dumb things that should be intuitive to even the meanest mentality that you just don't do that. It is kind of like dropping a bowling ball on your head. Bugs Bunny can get away with it, but I don't think anyone else would honestly try it.
If you do, all I can say is "Here's your sign..." ::)
Bottom line: don't gut-hook a fish. If you do (it happens to all of us), plan on putting that fish in the frying pan. If you are gut-hooking so many that you are exceeding your daily limit, then you better pick a new hobby or learn how to fish!
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Agreed, touching fish in the gills in bad news. The tissues are extremely sensitive, and any that are slightly damaged are highly prone to dying. And when one area of their tissue becomes necrotic, there is an excellent chance of the dead area spreading or causing blood poisoning in the fish. Both mean a dead fish.
Netting fish, especially trout, is not good for fish you intend to release. They often tangle in the net along with your hooks and line. It takes a long time to get them lose, and you want fish to be in the water as much as possible, and handled as little as possible.
Cider, your talk on acids and bases is completely correct. Often if a child swallows a small coin like a penny, it is passed slightly corroded but still completely recognizable. The corrosion of metal in fish also produces the chemical byproducts you mentioned and that can be harmful for the fish as well.
So far this year in four river trips, I have hooked and landed 126 trout ranging from 11" to 7 pounds. This was fishing mostly with a single hook and a nightcrawler piece, and also spinners. I have had 5 trout swallow the hook. With three I cut the line because they were not bleeding, and with two I kept and ate because they were bleeding. Fortunately the two I had to keep were just small browns and not big spawners. If half of released fish that had the line cut live, that is a very low mortality.
I truly do wonder how long and if hooks completely rust out. I would love to see someone post some info on that.
I see a lot of people squeezing fish hard, throwing them back on the water hard, netting and keeping them out of the water a long time. And it ticks me off.
For catch and release fishing, if you must net a fish, the rubber nets are much better idea. The don't tangle, are hook resistant, and when wet do not damage the protective slime coating of a trout or other fish. Bass and walleye are more hardy, with catfish being the most hardy. Trout and pike though need to be handled with care as their skin is much more sensitive. Trout have small, fine, soft scales, so they are the most delicate.
You guys know your stuff though. You seem to be very concerned about harvesting selectively, handling fish for release, and in Cider's case, he remembers most of his chemistry. Even I didn't remember most of that. like Doug Stange says, fish are a renewable resource when harvested selectively and handled with care. Doing these things will preserve fish for future generations for centuries to come.
Tyler
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Cider is correct handling the fish by the gills can cause the gills to get infections; even handling a fish period can remove their protective slime, and the sodium that is on your hands will have a bad effect on their skin, sometimes causing infection and could even lead to death. Have you ever wondered why people who are experts that net fish use rubber nets? it's because the net does not rub off as much of the slime. Trout especially are susceptible to the skin infections because of very little protective slime and scales. To put it in redneck terms for you it is like someone putting a substance far worse than alkaline on our skin and holding it there and us not being able to wash it off.
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This is why I hate using live bait. I just started using live minnows while ice fishing this past winter, for the first time in 15 years, because it is more effective during winter hardwater. Previously, I only used lures and flies. Since the ice has melted, I have become addicted to using minnows and nightcrawlers for walleye fishing, because it is alot easier to throw out your bait, crack open a beer and wait. Plus, it is easier to fil up my freezer with live bait. Although, I don't think it is nearly as fun as enticing a fish with an artificial lure. I would never do this for trout. In fact, I would never fish for trout with anything other than a flyrod. However, one time while walleye fishing, I gut hooked a rainbow on a nightcrawler. :'( The point I am making is, I never gut hooked fish on artificial flies and rarely on soft plastics and plugs. Now, I'm doing it all of the time. I need to get back on the wagon and start using the lures in my tackle box more; at least until hardwater hits!
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Cider. do you have any numbers of fish that die because of removing hooks through the gills? I don't dispute the fact that it is damaging to the fish, but i'm still not convinced that it is more damaging than leaving a hook inside. Also do you know of any other studies that mention leaving a longer line attached? I'm sure theres more out there and i dont like making judgements on just a single study.
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Wyogator,
If you fish bait, you can still have low mortality if you fish it actively and not passively. Setting the hook as soon as a fish takes the bait ensures this. When you drift bait in current for trout, you have the rod in your hand, and when the fish hits, you set, and 95% of the time you have a jaw, lip, or roof of the mouth hooked fish. Using sharp hooks and proper gear ensures that bait, fished properly, is no more harmful to fish than lures or flies.
In a lake when you bait fish, mortality is quite a bit higher than for flies and lures. So if you fish bait in a lake, fish it on a bait rig or under a slipfloat, and have the rod in your hands so you can set as soon as the take is felt. By not using too much bait, and keeping the hookpoint exposed and sharp, you won't miss many that hit. In fact, a single hook bait rig has less mortality in my mind than a treble dressed crankbait or topwater plug.
Tyler
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I agree that grabbing or lifting a fish by the gill plate, especially one of substantial weight is a bad idea and can easily lead to further injury of the fish. However, in some instances hooks can be sucessfully removed through the gills slit with out damaging the gills themselves. Often with species such as bass and walleye the hook can be grasped and removed in this manner with small needlenose pliers or hemostats with out coming in contact with the gills. I find that it is much more difficult to remove deep hooks from trout and similar species this way due to size and gills structure.
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Cider. do you have any numbers of fish that die because of removing hooks through the gills? I don't dispute the fact that it is damaging to the fish, but i'm still not convinced that it is more damaging than leaving a hook inside.
No, that number is impossible to predict in the "real world". You could measure it in a laboratory environment, but that may not reflect what truly happens in our fisheries.
I agree, leaving a fish gut-hooked is very harmful to the well-being of that fish. So is running your hands/fingers around in its gills. If you feel that you must remove a hook through the gills then at least use clean stainless steel hemostats and be very careful not to come into contact with the gills. Then throw the fish in your creel.
I still hold with my earlier statement. I said that if you gut-hook a fish, you might as well put it in your frying pan. I personally don't release gut-hooked fish, I eat them! Through the ice I have a higher percentage of gut hooking with the tip-ups and live bait. However, through the ice I am a meat fishermen because that is the time of year when the fish taste best. During the openwater season I release the majority of the fish that I catch and I rarely fish with any type of bait that a fish will swallow! If you are gut-hooking so many fish that you will be keeping too many, then you best improve you techniques or choose another method of fishing!
Either way you look at this issue, you have to understand one thing. Fishing is potentially harmful to the fish even when you practice the best catch & release methods that you know of. Once you disturb and ecosystem, it is impossible to return it to its normal state. The best you can hope for is that you were contientious and you did your best to enjoy the fishery and leave it in the best condition that you could when you are done.
Keep this in mind. Science is not conclusive. It is self-correcting and self-limiting. Even the best study can be flawed. You need to look at the study conditions: environment, controls, experimental groups, number of repetitions. Don't trust the stats until they have been repeated numerous times and have been tested and cannot be disproved! One or two studies on rusty hooks in a fish belly aren't going to tell you anything. Especially if they don't cover all the possible conditions, situations, types of fisheries, types of hooks, and species of fish! The jury is still out, but one thing should be apparent to you. Would you let someone put their arm down your throat and pick you up by your lungs? No! They are protected for a reason. The same reason that the gills of a fish are protected behind a bony plate!
Cider, your talk on acids and bases is completely correct. and in Cider's case, he remembers most of his chemistry.
I sure hope so, I use my knowledge/training in the lab nearly every day! ;D ;D