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Author Topic: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )  (Read 1270 times)

taxid

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Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
« Reply #15 on: Nov 05, 2019, 03:32 PM »


Interestingly,  these fish can’t successfully spawn though they go through all the motions with no viable progeny. Bummer. I have to get more info but I remember something about alewives and thiamin deficiency.




LEETOWN, W.Va. — Great Lakes fish in the salmon family that rely on the fish “alewife” as part of their diet face a major obstacle in restoring naturally reproducing populations, according to new U.S. Geological Survey research published in the journal Fish and Shellfish Immunology.

For more than a decade researchers have been trying to unravel the mystery of why Lake Trout and other salmonids that consume alewife produce spawn that die young. Although researchers have recognized the connection between thiamine and the death of the young fish for a decade, the new study provides an additional clue; fish that survive the initial impact of thiamine deficiency are experiencing changes in immune function that resemble those occurring in humans with inflammatory diseases.

Early Mortality Syndrome, or EMS, results in embryonic mortality in salmon, steelhead trout, brown trout, lake trout, and Chinook salmon. The symptoms of EMS include loss of equilibrium, swimming in a spiral pattern, lethargy, hyper-excitability, hemorrhage and death, which occurs between hatching and first feeding.

“Vitamin B1, or Thiamine, is an essential nutrient that animals must obtain through their diet,” said Chris Ottinger, a USGS immunologist and lead author of the study. “We found that alewives, one of the main diets of many Great Lakes fish, contains an enzyme called “thiaminase” that destroys the thiamine in fish that consume them. The lack of B1 leads to Early Mortality Syndrome as well as the newly reported immune dysfunctions that may be perpetuating infectious diseases in this fish community.”



“There is some debate as to whether the thiaminase that is obtained through the consumption of the alewives is coming directly from the fish or from bacteria associated with the fish,” said Ottinger. “Either way the fish that eats the alewives becomes thiamine deficient through the destruction of the thiamine they obtain in their diet resulting in EMS as well the immune dysfunctions we have demonstrated.”

Thiamine is essential for energy production in cells, normal nerve function and also is an antioxidant. Other dysfunctions associated with Great Lakes salmonids consumption of alewives include changes in behavior and reduced ability to capture prey.

“In vitro immune function in thiamine-replete and-depleted lake trout (Salvelinus namaycush)” is available onlinein the journal Fish & Shellfish Immunologyby C. A. Ottinger, D. C. Honeyfield, C. L. Densmorea, and L. R. Iwanowicz.

http://blogs.twincities.com/outdoors/2014/04/16/are-alewife-killing-great-lakes-trout-and-salmon/?doing_wp_cron=1573011034.6040658950805664062500

 
“The trouble with quotes on the Internet is you never know if they are genuine.” —Abraham Lincoln

woodchip1

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Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
« Reply #16 on: Nov 05, 2019, 06:48 PM »
Have other bodies of water had the same problem with vit.B-1 Deficiency . Do they believe it is totally Elyies  and does not have anything because of specific  bodies of water??

lowaccord66

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Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
« Reply #17 on: Nov 06, 2019, 10:21 AM »
LOL , well Jon come up in late January or February not to many around then 😉
 Right now it isn’t to busy after Columbus weekend the OOTs drop way off  , then it’s mostly those fancy pin and flies persons 👍🎣

Call me fancy Fred! 

westernmas

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Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
« Reply #18 on: Nov 06, 2019, 10:40 AM »
Call me fancy Fred!

I'll be getting fancy this weekend.  Can't wait!
AKA-PMaloney86 on the shanty
AKA-westernm@$$hole prior to a mod change
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taxid

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Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
« Reply #19 on: Nov 07, 2019, 04:11 AM »
Have other bodies of water had the same problem with vit.B-1 Deficiency . Do they believe it is totally Elyies  and does not have anything because of specific  bodies of water??

Well alewives do produce thiaminase so it should be a problem everywhere. However it appears to only be a problem if you want natural reproduction. BTW gizzard shad have the same issue.

That said the article does say some scientists think there may be something different going on that the alewives cause.

"There is some debate as to whether the thiaminase that is obtained through the consumption of the alewives is coming directly from the fish or from bacteria associated with the fish,” said Ottinger. “Either way the fish that eats the alewives becomes thiamine deficient through the destruction of the thiamine they obtain in their diet resulting in EMS as well the immune dysfunctions we have demonstrated.”
“The trouble with quotes on the Internet is you never know if they are genuine.” —Abraham Lincoln

woodchip1

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Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
« Reply #20 on: Nov 07, 2019, 07:31 AM »
if  alewives do produce thiaminase and its effects other fish  with reproduction. How can the reproduce Sounds like maybe they will stock Lamprey eels next??????

taxid

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Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
« Reply #21 on: Nov 07, 2019, 09:01 AM »
if  alewives do produce thiaminase and its effects other fish  with reproduction. How can the reproduce Sounds like maybe they will stock Lamprey eels next??????

Very good question about other species and reproduction. I wasn't able to find an answer with a google search. However I did find that fish that varied their diet and didn't feed exclusively on fish that contain thiaminase would be fine. Apparently at least some salmonids feed exclusively on alewives so have this issue? Perhaps when the alewive population is down and they are forced to feed on, say, smelt reproduction is more successful? Scratch that. Smelt have Thiaminase too. I wonder if Gobies do?   

BTW here is a list of fish species that contain Thiaminase and a list that don't.

Those that do:

Atlantic menhaden (Brevoortia tyrannus)
Atlantic herring (Clupea harengus)
Baltic herring (Clupea harengus membras)
Broad-striped anchovy (Anchoa hepsetus)
Brown bullhead (Amelurus nebulosus)
Californian anchovy (Engraulis mordax)
Capelin (Mallotus villosus)
Channel catfish (Ictalurus punctatus)
Common carp (Cyprinus carpio)
Chub mackerel / Pacific mackerel (Scomber japonicus)
Clams (family Veneridae)
Gulf menhaden (Brevoortia patronus)
Lake whitefish (Coregonus clupeaformis)
Lobster (Homarus americanus)
Mediterranean mussel (Mytilus galloprovincialis)
Rainbow smelt (Osmerus mordax)
Round whitefish (Prosopium cylindraceum)
Ruby snapper (Etelis carbunculus)
Scaled sardine (Harengula jaguana)
Scallops (Placopecten grandis)
Skipjack tuna (Katsuwonus pelamis)
White bass (Morone chrysops)
Yellowfin tuna (Neothunnus macropterus)

Here is a list of some species that don’t contain thiaminase:

Atlantic cod (Gadus morhua)
Atlantic hake / silver hake (Merluccius bilinearis)
Atlantic halibut (Hippoglossus hippoglossus)
Atlantic mackerel (Scomber scombrus)
Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar)
Black crappie (Pomoxis nigromaculatus)
Black sea bass (Centropristis striata)
Bluegill (Lepomis macrochirus)
Brown trout (Salmo trutta)
Cisco/lake herring (Coregonus artedi)
Coho salmon (Oncorhynchus kisutch)
Haddock (Melanogrammus aeglefinus)
Hake (Urophycis spp)
Hardhead catfish (Ariopsis felis)
Lake trout (Salvelinus namaycush)
Largemouth bass (Micropterus salmoides)
Lemon sole (Microstomus kitt)
Mullet (Mugilidae spp)
Northern pike (Esox lucius)
Pollock/Pollack (Pollachius pollachius, Pollachius virens)
Pond smelt (Hypomesus olidus)
Rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss)
Redfish / red perch / rose fish (Sebastes norvegicus)
Rock bass (Ambloplites rupestris)
Silver seatrout (Cynoscion nothus)
Smallmouth bass (Micropterus dolomieu)
Southern kingfish / king whiting (Menticirrhus americanus)
Tilapia (Oreochromis spp)
Winter flounder (Pseudopleuronectes americanus)
Yellowtail flounder (Limanda ferruginea)
Yellow perch (Perca flavescens)
Yellow pike / walleye (Sander vitreus)
“The trouble with quotes on the Internet is you never know if they are genuine.” —Abraham Lincoln

taxid

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Re: Good NY Trip! (Don’t Ask ;) )
« Reply #22 on: Nov 07, 2019, 09:06 AM »
Looks like Round Gobies do not contain Thiaminase.

"Based on results from the radiometric assay, Lake Michigan round goby have been previously reported to contain no thiaminase activity (Tillitt et al., 2005)."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6042866/
“The trouble with quotes on the Internet is you never know if they are genuine.” —Abraham Lincoln

 



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